From: ham789@netzero.net   
      
   On 11/23/2012 3:19 PM, Jim Rojas wrote:   
   > mike wrote:   
   >> On 11/22/2012 9:18 PM, Jim Rojas wrote:   
   >>> mike wrote:   
   >>>> On 11/22/2012 10:40 AM, Jim Rojas wrote:   
   >>>> .   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> My system uses running water to provide the DC power.   
   >>>> I'd like to hear more about the running water.   
   >>>> Florida is pretty flat. How did you obtain   
   >>>> a water supply with some head.   
   >>>> Legal issues getting permissions to divert it etc.?   
   >>>> What kinds of systems did you use to convert the head   
   >>>> to rotational energy? Volumes/velocities/efficiencies etc?   
   >>>>   
   >>>> My impression is, that here in Oregon, even if you have   
   >>>> a stream running thru the middle of your property, you're   
   >>>> not allowed to spit within 10 feet of it, much less divert it for power   
   >>>> generation.   
   >>>   
   >>> My aboveground swimming pool is the only water source.   
   >>>   
   >>> 2 alternating 1.5HP 220V pool pumps drives the entire setup. They each   
   >>> take turns every 4 hours.   
      
   >>>   
   >>> There are 2 freshwater pumps in series. The internal impeller was   
   >>> replaced with a pelton style wheel for maximum force. This pump is   
   >>> readily available at Northern Tools. The pelton wheel was purchased on   
   >>> ebay for $249 each.   
   >>>   
   >>> The freshwater pumps are turning a 20" cast iron wheel from an old   
   >>> diesel generator. 2 belts then drives the alternators.   
   >>>   
   >>> So for every single turn of the 20" wheel, the alternator spins about 10   
   >>> times. So if the 20" wheel is spinning at say 100RPM, the alternators   
   >>> are running at roughly idle speed.   
   >>>   
   >>> 2 manual water valves control the water flow, one is a bypass valve, the   
   >>> other is the valve going to the freshwater pumps. I could have installed   
   >>> a governor, but I wanted to keep the system as simple as possible. If I   
   >>> need more RPM, I slowly close the bypass valve in relation to the pump   
   >>> feed to achieve this easily.   
   >>>   
   >>> This system by no means is perfect. It requires daily inspection, and it   
   >>> does require grid power to run. But the point is to reduce my overall   
   >>> electric usage by using a my pool pump that needs to run anyway. If for   
   >>> any reason my system shuts down, I receive a text message on my cell   
   >>> phone.   
   >>>   
   >>> Water pressure, gravity, centrifugal force play an important part here.   
   >>> At first I had the fresh water pumps working great. But once the sand   
   >>> filter started getting clogged, the entire system would come to a   
   >>> screeching halt. Because the system runs 24/7, the sand filter needs to   
   >>> be backwashed once a week. When the pool is not in use, I put a screen   
   >>> cover to keep the leaves and other debris from getting into the pool. A   
   >>> screen room would be nice, but it is not in the allowable budget at this   
   >>> time. To solve this issue for now, I installed a second sand filter in   
   >>> parallel. I installed a manual valve on the input side of the sand   
   >>> filter. This now allows backwashing without having to turn off the pumps   
   >>> whatsoever.   
   >>>   
   >>> By county code, I am allowed to generate up to 5KW of usable power with   
   >>> no permits of any kind needed. Anything above that just requires a   
   >>> permit which runs about $15 a year, with no annual official inspections.   
   >>>   
   >> It gets interestinger and interestinger...   
   >> Can you disclose the numbers?   
   >> How much real power are you using to run the pump?   
   >> How much continuous real power can you get out of the inverter?   
   >> How much real power would it take to run a high efficiency pool   
   >> filter system without the power generation?   
   >> If you take net power consumption and subtracted from the   
   >> high-efficiency filter   
   >> system power, what's the payback period on the investment for the power   
   >> generation component?   
   >   
   > It is funny that you need a scientific explanation to understand the   
   > basically simple.   
      
   I'm not laughing.  A few numerical results is all I seek.   
   >   
   > interestinger? Really...how about more interesting...   
      
   It's a sorting technique.  People on defensible technical ground   
   go straight for the technical argument.  People who can't defend   
   the technical aspects attack something they can bitch about.   
      
   When you greet someone in late afternoon with, "good morning,"   
   you can learn a lot from their response.  The nitpickers and the   
   "your wrong about everything you say" crowd will correct you.   
   The mellow "go with the flow" types that you'd like to hang out   
   with will just let it pass or smile.  And there are lots   
   of interesting shades of gray.  Their response might give some   
   insight into how they think and what interests them.  Makes   
   it easier to "chat her up." ;-)   
   >   
   > By your endless questions, you did not read the minor detail that the   
   > alternator rotor coils were replaced with Neodyium magnets...that should   
   > have ended your question. The alternator requires no power to excite the   
   > field. Thus power is produced at a much lower RPM. This would not be   
   > true if I kept the coils in the rotors.   
      
   See...defensiveness, buzz words...vague gestures that might be a reason   
   for good   
   numbers...if there were numbers...   
   >   
   > This is basic electronic guys.   
   >   
   Yes it is...and physics...and thermodynamics...and conservation of energy.   
      
   While it's certainly easy to describe a situation where unavoidable   
   wasted energy can be economically recaptured, I don't think this is one   
   of them.  Unavoidable is the key word in that sentence.   
   It's often more valuable to reduce the wasted energy than to reclaim it   
   by converting it through several different forms then back to the original.   
      
   If I made statements, you'd likely react negatively, waive your hands   
   around, talk generally about magnets and claim I'm wrong.   
   But I'd still not have learned anything.   
      
   If I ask questions, I give you the opportunity to describe the math   
   behind your innovation and I learn, not only that I was wrong, but   
   exactly how your system works and how I might apply that innovation   
   to my own projects.  I don't have to guess about your implementation.   
   You don't have to take offense and tell me I'm wrong. It's a proper   
   technical discussion.  I get educated.   
      
   I asked for a few numbers that are trivial to measure and should be   
   in your notebook already...right next to your theoretical calculations.   
   It's basic physics.   
      
   I wonder how much money you could make on a low back pressure pool   
   filter that paid for itself with reduced energy consumption in one   
   season?   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)