From: ham789@netzero.net   
      
   On 5/3/2013 10:35 PM, Morris Dovey wrote:   
   > On 5/3/13 9:40 PM, mike wrote:   
   >> On 5/3/2013 8:16 AM, Morris Dovey wrote:   
   >>> On 5/2/13 4:47 PM, mike wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>>> Would be interesting to see the theory.   
   >>>   
   >>> It’s a relatively straightforward Carnot cycle / Stirling / fluidyne   
   >>> engine. There’s an abundance of educational material on the web in   
   >>> addition to the specifics I provide in my web pages.   
   >>   
   >> I don't pretend to understand any of that except that temperature   
   >> differences and/or pressure differences are required to make it work.   
   >> And the upper bound of energy output is the energy you put thru it.   
   >   
   > Yes, the energy that goes in is the energy that comes out. :-)   
   >   
   > The upper bound on efficiency of thermal-to-mechanical energy conversion   
   > is determined solely by hot and cold side temperatures, and the goals   
   > are to maximize the operating ∆P and the cycle frequency.   
      
   Correct me if I'm wrong...to maintain the superfluid, you have to keep   
   the end sections above 374F.  If you don't use superfluid, you can keep   
   the cold ends at ambient.  That almost doubles deltaT.  What properties   
   do you gain from the superfluid that surpass that?   
      
   I can't support the argument, but my gut tells me that the mass of the   
   medium matters.  For massive media, you have less physical movement.   
   F=MA.  So, for the fluid "sloshing" back and forth in the engine,   
   the frequency is inversely proportional to the mass of the medium.   
   You want the path length of the "slosh" to be greater than the diameter   
   of the pipe.  You want movement over the whole length of the magnetic   
   field.  More heavy ions may not be better.  For a fixed amount of energy   
   to accelerate 'em, maybe you want fewer, faster moving ions???   
      
   I have a second gut feeling.  If you have two pressure waves in opposite   
   direction, what happens if you put an obstruction in the center of the   
   pipe?  Does the pressure wave in the opposite direction differ from   
   a reflection off the obstruction in the middle?  Stated another way,   
   can you run two half-pipes in parallel using the same magnetic   
   field for both constrictions?   
      
   Damn, I keep having gut feelings...   
   In a conventional MHD you start with a plasma and send it thru the magnet.   
   The ions do their thing and the whole mess gets sent out the exhaust.   
   In a closed system, you have to recreate the ions.  Assuming that   
   takes energy, how much does that subtract from the total output?   
      
      
   >   
   >>>> Sounds like an evening project.   
   >>>   
   >>> With temperature above 705˚F and pressure above 3200 PSIA, I’m inclined   
   >>> to proceed a bit more deliberately.   
   >>   
   >> Which begs the question, "why pick water with an exceedingly high   
   >> critical pressure?"   
   >   
   > The most obvious answers were listed together in my post before last.   
   >   
   >> Ethanol would reduce your pressures considerably.   
   >> And helium is supercritical at 2.24 atm at any temperature you'd   
   >> care to operate it.   
   >   
   > True, but at low pressures both are too compressible and provide   
   > inadequate dP/dT behavior - and you might want to consider the   
   > difficulty of inducing the high degree of ionization required.   
   I can understand that for Helium, but isn't Ethanol about the same   
   mass as water?  Critical pressure is about 1/7th.   
   >   
   > Speaking of which, how would you go about ionizing Helium?   
      
   Pretty much the same way you ionize water...you don't.   
   You put something else in with it.   
   But I am thinking more in terms of plasma where you just supply   
   enough energy to make it come apart.   
   >   
   >> I'm doin' all this naysayin', but it's easy to put me in my place with   
   >> some simple theoretical/experimental results. And that's all I'm trying   
   >> to make visible. I don't wanna read websites or watch youtubes.   
   >   
   > I’m not interested in putting anyone in their place - and I can’t see   
   > publishig results before the experimentation is completed.   
      
   Standard development process is to start with a theory, propose an   
   implementation,   
   predict the results, then build it to verify results.   
   >   
   >> I wanna see YOUR analysis/plan/results...with real predicted/measured   
   >> numbers.   
   >   
   > Okay. When/if I have those online I’ll let you know - but then you’ll   
   > still need to read at least one web site. :-)   
   I have asked for links to sites that describe your working theory.   
   >   
   >> I'll even volunteer to help.   
   >   
   > If you had useful knowledge, your offer to offer would be appreciated,   
   > but without that I can’t see that you’d be able to help.   
   This has become polarized.  Not my intention.   
      
   I've been probing you for information/understanding.   
   So far, I've got buzz words and generalization.   
      
   Let's say I wanted to duplicate what you're doing, but start small.   
   Ignoring the superfluid and the MHD for the moment and concentrating   
   on the heat engine.   
   I take my Bunsen burner and a chunk of glass tubing.   
   I heat the glass and stretch it to neck down a section.   
   I close up the ends.  I heat the hot end and cool the cold end.   
   Should I be able to detect the acoustic wave created by the gas   
   oscillating back and forth?  If not, what else do I need do?   
   What should be the relative lengths of the hot section, cold   
   section and reduced diameter section?   
      
   Telling me to google it won't help either of us.  You should be   
   able to articulate in a few sentences what to do to make it oscillate,   
   cuz that's the basis of your project.   
      
   I'll go up in the attic to see if I can find the Bunsen.   
   I really am trying to learn and help.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)