From: DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@DLU.org   
      
   gfretwell@aol.com wrote in   
   news:fdn13edue31a25ae187odladm9qe5c2j6s@4ax.com:   
      
   > On Sat, 5 Jan 2019 07:52:45 -0800 (PST), Tom Horne   
   >  wrote:   
   >   
   >>On Friday, January 4, 2019 at 7:46:29 PM UTC-5, gfre...@aol.com   
   >>wrote:   
   >>> On Fri, 4 Jan 2019 09:35:58 -0800 (PST), Tom Horne   
   >>>  wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>> >On Thursday, January 3, 2019 at 10:10:18 AM UTC-5, J.B. Wood   
   >>> >wrote:   
   >>> >> Hello, all.  As most portable consumer-grade AC generators   
   >>> >> don't have their grounds (frame and ground prongs on their   
   >>> >> mounted AC outlets) bonded to their neutrals, I was wondering   
   >>> >> what useful function having a 3-prong U-ground outlet on the   
   >>> >> genset performs (other than mating with appliance and   
   >>> >> extension cords).  In a residence having the neutrals and   
   >>> >> green (grounding) wires connected together at the service   
   >>> >> entrance ensures that hot wire-to-exposed metal frame   
   >>> >> appliance faults (assuming appliance is using a 3-wire cord)   
   >>> >> will trip the appropriate panel breaker/fuse.  This would not   
   >>> >> appear to be the case when using the portable generator.  I'm   
   >>> >> only assuming that the generator is servicing 3-wire   
   >>> >> plugged-in appliances.  I don't think it's a shock issue   
   >>> >> outdoors if a hot-to-ground fault in the appliance occurs, it   
   >>> >> may continue to function normally until it's subsequently   
   >>> >> plugged into a residential/commercial AC power outlet.   
   >>> >>   
   >>> >> Of course the equivalent action in the residence could be had   
   >>> >> by bonding the generator's neutral to its frame ground.  Your   
   >>> >> time and comment is greatly appreciated.  Sincerely,   
   >>> >>   
   >>> >> --   
   >>> >> J. B. Wood                 e-mail: ar...34@hotmail.com   
   >>> >   
   >>> >I came up short at your first assertion.  In my 55 years of   
   >>> >doing various forms of local power production installs I don't   
   >>> >remember finding one off the floor portable generator were the   
   >>> >neutral was not bonded to the frame.   
   >>>   
   >>> Honda inverters did not used to. Not sure about now but I think   
   >>> it makes the problem worse. Why would you create an extra path to   
   >>> kill someone if it did not exist before?   
   >>> (think ungrounded delta)   
   >>> They all have instructions to lift the ground if this is not   
   >>> going to SDS transfer equipment.   
   >>   
   >>If there is no connection between the Neutral and ground then the   
   >>voltage relative to ground is unknown and more importantly a fault   
   >>between the energized conductor and ground does not create a shock   
   >>hazard beyond a small capacitive effect.  If there is no path back   
   >>to the generator winding from the earth because the neutral point   
   >>of the winding is not connected to the earth then in one sense   
   >>there is a lower risk of an injurious electric shock.   
   >>   
   >>I will admit that I never checked the bonding on the Honda Inverter   
   >>Generators because I have never had to use one that was connected   
   >>to a building wiring system were the National Electric Code has   
   >>specific requirements about the presence or absence of the neutral   
   >>bond that have to be matched to whether or not the transfer   
   >>mechanism transfers the neutral.   
   >>   
   >>I find your experience with some of the Honda Inverter generators   
   >>not having a bonded neutral disconcerting because without that   
   >>bonding jumper there is no effective fault current pathway back to   
   >>the source.  I guess that it is fortunate that I always use a plug   
   >>in Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI) cord set between   
   >>Inverter generators or Inverters and the loads they supply.  That   
   >>is why we have to use Full Sign Wave Inverters.  Cord set GFCIs   
   >>cannot tolerate a non sinusoidal wave form without tripping.   
   >>   
   >>Now I'm going to have to check the Honda Inverter Generators to see   
   >>if they are bonded and correct that if they are not.  Even if the   
   >>GFCI protects the user from an electrical injury that will not   
   >>protect them from a startle reaction injury; which are a lot more   
   >>common than most users are aware of; that may result from the brief   
   >>shock sensation they would experience while the GFCI is tripping.   
   >>   
   >>In all cases I want the Over Current Protective Device (OCPD) or   
   >>the GFCI to have opened the circuit in response to any current   
   >>fault prior to any living thing experiencing any degree of shock.   
   > The main reason we ground utility power is to deal with line   
   > transients like lightning strikes. This not much of an issue with a   
   > small portable and avoiding any ground connection at all is safer   
   > because there is no ground fault hazard. If the ground connection   
   > is not there I also see little advantage in bonding the neutral.   
   > I suppose you could do this   
   >   
   >  http://gfretwell.com/electrical/portable_generator_ground.jpg   
      
     I think that a genset must operate similar to a ground fault   
   interruptor.   
      
     If a current gets detected on the fault return, the breaker for the   
   generator feed opens.   
      
     Yes?  No?   
      
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