XPost: alt.atheism, alt.transgendered, soc.support.transgendered   
   XPost: alt.support.depression   
   From: jeo@somewhere.org   
      
   On 2022-02-14 12:22, KWills wrote:   
   > On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 09:21:02 -0500, aaa  wrote:   
   >   
   >> On 2022-02-14 08:36, KWills wrote:   
   >   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We have to deal with what's on earth not what is or will be in   
   heaven.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And what happens on earth is often doubleplusungood.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just because bad thing happens doesn't mean it has divine   
   permission.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> It doesn't NEED divine permission because God takes a hands off   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> approach.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> If there is no permission, you can't assume it is allowed.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If it had divine permission, heaven would be equally bad by the   
   same   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> permission. That is just a logical impossibility.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> That doesn't follow. God created Heaven the way He wanted it to   
   be.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> God's law is equal to all. It's called justice. If God allowed bad   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> things to happen on earth, God wouldn't forbid bad things to   
   happen in   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> heaven either.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> Why ever not?   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> Because it's logic.   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> Not at all.  Besides, logic has no place in theology, it's all about   
   >>>>>>>>> faith.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> I'm talking about the logic I have shown in the above.   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> It's flawed.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> Why?   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> Because what God allows or ignores is entirely up to God.  What is   
   >>>>> reserved for Heaven may not be appropriate for Earth.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Are you saying that God's law is conditional depending on whether it's   
   >>>> applied to heaven or earth? Where is the justice in that?   
   >>>   
   >>> How God applies God's law is up to Him.  Is that too difficult to   
   >>> understand?   
   >>   
   >> Nothing difficult to understand. It's called justice. Is it difficult to   
   >> understand justice?   
   >   
   > Justice for those who have graduated to Heaven is different from   
   > justice handed out on Earth.   
      
   Nonsense. It's the same God's law.   
      
     Otherwise, why would anyone want to go to   
   > Heaven?   
      
   Because it's God's grace and precious gift of life.   
      
   >   
   >>>>>>>>>>        God is omnipotent, He can do whatever the fuck He   
   >>>>>>>>>>> wants, wherever He wants.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> Allowing bad things is not being omnipotent. Omnipotence means   
   there is   
   >>>>>>>>>> no bad thing possible.   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> Omnipotence means *anything* is possible.  That's what 'omni' means!   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> Since God is good, omnipotence means God has made all things good.   
   >>>>>>>> therefore, there is no bad thing left.   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> And yet lots of bad things abound.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> They have nothing to do with God.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> Of course they do.  He didn't stop them happening, did He?   
   >>>>   
   >>>> You don't know that. That is only your presumption.   
   >>>   
   >>> If He had stopped them happening, they wouldn't have happened, would   
   >>> they?   
   >>   
   >> That is exactly why there is no sin or evil in heaven.   
   >   
   > Because God exercises His powers in Heaven in a way He doesn't do on   
   > Earth!   
      
   Pure speculation.   
      
   >   
   >>>> God is like the sun,   
   >>>> and evil is like the darkness of the night. Whenever there is the sun,   
   >>>> there can't be the darkness of the night.   
   >>>   
   >>> And yet the darkness of the night inevitably follows the light of day.   
   >>   
   >> The sun will always shine.   
   >   
   > Until you can't see it and it gets dark.   
      
   That is only the illusion on Earth.   
      
      
   >   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the other the hand, your assumption that there can be   
   anything good   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >from letting nature taking its course without God involved is   
   just a   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wishful thinking without the slightest evidence.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whatever can be is what it is. Both good and bad.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The rule is that no one can be good or doing the good thing   
   without God.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you trying to say that man is inherently evil?  Why would God   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> create something like that?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> Without God, man is always evil. Can there be any doubt about   
   that?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> Yes, there can.  People who don't believe in Him do good things as   
   >>>>>>>>>>> well as bad things.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> Since God is good, to disbelieve God is to disbelieve good. How can   
   >>>>>>>>>> anyone do good when he disbelieves good?   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> By taking advantage of God's unwilingness to interfere in the   
   >>>>>>>>> commission of good things.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> That is not an answer to my question. Where is the logic for someone   
   to   
   >>>>>>>> do good without believing good in the first place?   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> Perhaps there is something intrinsic in human nature that wants to do   
   >>>>>>> good?   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> You need to justify the logic.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> No, I don't.  It's fundamental human behaviour.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Then it's only an illogical behavior.   
   >>>   
   >>> There's nothing illogical about it.  It is what it is.   
   >>   
   >> That's empty claim. You don't even dare to face the logic.   
   >   
   > Speaking of empty claims, what about your claim that Jesus said only   
   > God is good?   
      
   It's not a claim. It's fact.   
      
      
   >   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be clear, the bad thing in this fallen world is not by   
   God's   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> permission. The bad thing is the result and the consequence   
   of human   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sin. Since sin is never by the permission of God, the result   
   of human   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sin should never be by the permission of God either.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And God does not interfere to stop sin.  Why can't He?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because the sinner doesn't want to repent his sin to turn back   
   to God.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> God clearly has more clout than some deluded sinner.  Yet He   
   chooses   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> no to exercise that clout.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> You don't know that. You don't know what God has planned for   
   everyone,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> and God does have a perfect plan for everyone.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> I have said before that God has no plan:  He doesn't interfere.  He   
   >>>>>>>>>>> lets Nature take its course, whatever that course turns out to be.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> I believe differently. I believe God sees all and knows all with   
   great   
   >>>>>>>>>> wisdom and love for all his creations. Therefore, God must have a   
   >>>>>>>>>> perfect plan for everyone.   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> That perfect plan is a hands off non-interference platform.  We see   
   >>>>>>>>> the results every day.   
   >>>>>>>>   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)