From: Josjoha@market.socialism.nl
On 2023-07-26, nickname unavailable wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 26, 2023 at 6:14:59 AM UTC-5, Jos Boersema wrote:
>>On 2023-07-25, nickname unavailable wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 6:45:15 AM UTC-5, Jos Boersema wrote:
>>>>On 2023-07-23, nickname unavailable wrote:
[...]
>>> if you want to get rid of the parasites, or at least slow them down,
>>> you must get rid of free trade, you are watching russia and to a lesser
>>> extent, china doing that right now, and their standard of livings and
>>> life spans are shooting past the free trade nations.
>>
>> What do you mean by "free trade". Capitalism is not "free trade", but
>> rather dangerously restricted trade. Reducing border controls can be
>> called more "free", but I propose to not use enemy propaganda slogans in
>> a political / economic debate, due to the confusion it is designed to
>> create.
>>
>> In general, reducing border controls and fees stimulates trade and
>> efficiency, which can lead to greater prosperity. However, a possible
>> rise in corruption needs to be subtracted from the result.
>>
>> If the corruption, the Plutocacracy, gets worse due to the market becoming
>> larger to such an extend it offsets and overshadows an efficiency benefit
>> of open borders, the result would be negative. I suppose you are arguing
>> that this is the case, which is probably true due to the high levels of
>> corruption and bad if not criminal Government we see today.
>
> your failure to understand what capitalism is, is the reasons why what
> you propose, is doomed from the start. free trade elevates capital over
> sovereignty, labor, and the environment. once you unleash capital,
> capital will scour the world for cheap labor, low to no taxes, and
> environmental degradation.
First you claim I do not understand Capitalism, but then you do not show
how and why I fail to understand Capitalism, and/or to propose your own
definition and understanding of this concept / system. I hope you will
still do this in your reply, so that our discussion can have some
meaning to it. Please do the same for "free trade".
I already gave you my interpretation of "free trade", which has to
include the freedom to have land, the right to land, within the context
of a trade economy. Trade is not free, without free land. I realize that
my use of words does not follow modern propaganda methods. I don't care
about using enemy systems of propaganda in my vocabulary, I rather
choose my own vocabulary and try to match it to the topic. Defeating the
enemy starts with using words correctly. Much of humanity is basically
ruled by word choice propaganda, in my opinion. It has a *massive*
influence on the minds of the people.
If you call something a "vaccine", right or wrong, they will happily
inject themselves with dangerous substances, they will even clammor for
it. If you call it what it is, an experimental medicine or an unproven
form of DNA / mRNA therapy, it wouldn't surprise me if less then 1%
would still want the injection.
Words matter everything, because people usually do not want to use their
heads at all. Almost everything is about face value perception and then
immediately looking at people around to try to do the same and fit in.
Therefore it is critical to use words correctly.
If you think "free trade" as you use this words, results in
dictatorship, repression, poverty (etc), then don't call it "free trade"
because you are confusing people with that. You are using enemy
vocabulary, you become a tool for the people you are against. People
will think like this: "oh he is against freedom ! - next". Since you
seem to refer to reduced border controls, tarrifs and taxes, calling it
"open borders" seems fair enough ?
Do not follow enemy language poisoning. They are extremely good at it,
at manipulating people's minds. We / you will probably never match their
capacity to propagandize and lie to people on a global scale, but we
don't have to make it easy for them either. If we use clear wording and
the enemy is constantly on with their propaganda, their manipulations
and fraud, we at least gain a little moral high ground in the process.
*
The Soviet Union, inspired by a radical (and in my opinion, deeply
misguided) policy of eliminating all trade on an Imperial scale (!),
resulted in some of the worst environmental catastrophies ever.
You cannot eliminate "Capital". The "Capital goods" are land,
substantial factories / businesses, and large amounts of wealth in
whatever form, for instance in gold or even fiat currency. It is also
probably impossible to eliminate (excessive) greed in humans, or to wave
a magic wand and make the behavior of humans much better than what it
is.
Trade is critical to the economy.
The way to deal with Capital is to give everyone the same amount as a
right (natural resources). If someone is good with it and wants more,
he/she can try to rent some more from other people. If none is available,
then he/she can not and has hit the limit of the market (or the Earth if
you want to put it that way), or needs to bid higher.
> capital will corrupt small or weak centralized governments. we want
> less trade, not more. less trade means more self sufficiency, less debt,
> less environmental carnage.
If you are working on your land or other natural resource or even
without much or any natural resources in the market (such as a traveling
repair man or trader), you will find that you need to start
specializing. Once you start specializing, you become better, faster and
cheaper. You then need to trade your way to everything else you need.
This is the absolute basics of economics. Sadly, the far left doesn't even
understand this, which is their political doom and drives the population
to the political right, into the hands of the Capitalists, the privateers.
Trade is absolutely necessary, and it is so essential that you can try
what you want, you will not eliminate it. If you try to eliminate it
completely, you will instead eliminate yourself completely. It is that
basic. It presumably already existed way back in the stone age. It is
older than farming by who knows how many thousands or tens of thousands
of years.
> free trade is one of the biggest drivers of climate change, let alone
> poverty creation. there are no international enforcement mechanism on
> capital. and please do not tell me the fairy tale about how all countries
> will band together for some sort of utopia, and make capital responsible,
> or eliminate them, ain't gonna happen.
[continued in next message]
--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)
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