XPost: alt.education, alt.true-crime, pdx.general   
   XPost: or.politics   
   From: lojbab@lojban.org   
      
   "nimue"  wrote:   
   >>> Our schools are becoming more and more like mini-prisons.   
   >>   
   >> Over-the-top rhetoric unsupported by any facts.   
   >   
   >Metal detectors.   
      
   Airports, courthouses, and even some businesses.  And many retail   
   stores have shoplifting detectors that look a lot like metal   
   detectors.  None of these are mini-prisons.   
      
   >Pat downs.  Lockdowns.   
      
   Not constantly, I hope.   
      
   >The constant presence of SSAs and   
   >police in the buildings.   
      
   There are (or should be) a constant presence of police on the streets.   
   It used to be the case that police would patrol a beat and they WERE   
   such a constant presence.   
      
   >The lack of 4th amendment rights.   
      
   No change from the past, so it can't make the schools MORE like a   
   prison.   
      
   >Gang presence.   
      
   You mean to say that there are no gangs on the street in NYC?  Or are   
   you claiming that NYC is a maxi-prison.   
      
   >Constant fighting.   
      
   The only reason for that is that discipline has broken down from   
   not-all-that-long-ago.  Exactly the opposite direction from more   
   prison-like.   
      
   >Lots of similarities.   
      
   As I said, you seem to think that the streets of your city are a   
   prison, given the traits you call prison-like.   
      
   >>> When I see how   
   >>> they are treated, the disgusting verbal disrespect that they have to   
   >>> put up with,   
   >>   
   >> If you mean the teachers, I agree with you.   
   >   
   >Yes, teachers do have to put up with that -- I'm a teacher.  I know.   
   >However, I think our students are so rude because that is all that is   
   >modeled for them.   
      
   By the boob tube and the media stars.   
      
   >> How are these MORE like mini-prisons that what kids had to put up with   
   >> a hundred years ago?   
   >>   
   >> And if you want real abuse, how about the way the nuns in those days   
   >> treated Catholic school kids?   
   >   
   >Absolutely disgusting.  What's your point?  Just because it was bad then   
   >doesn't mean it's not bad now.   
      
   It means that claiming that things are MORE like a prison now are   
   unsupportable.  For you, apparently childhood is an 18 year prison   
   term.  And yet most parents wish that they could impose stronger   
   discipline than they do.   
      
   >>> When they are yelled at by SSAs all day   
   >>> long, they come to accept that as appropriate and right.   
   >>   
   >> They are probably yelled at even more harshly by their parents.   
   >> Especially if they are so disobedient that they have to be yelled at   
   >> all day long at school.   
   >   
   >Oh, please.  There is no reason to scream, "Get your hat off NOW!" to a kid   
   >walking in the building.   
      
   On day one perhaps.  By day 20, the kid oughta know better.   
      
   Of course maybe they are taking lessons from military drill   
   instructors.  I suspect that not a few people would like to see   
   teenagers go through a boot-camp so that they learn to do what they   
   are told by legitimate authority, and to do so immediately.  My dad   
   certainly wanted me to have a hitch in the military, and I was about   
   the least rebellious kid around.   
      
   >I am appalled at the way I see people acting.   
      
   I am appalled at the way I see kids acting, which often is even worse.   
   That doesn't give adults any excuse, but I really don't see that many   
   adults acting out in public.   
      
   >>>> "License" is merely legal permission.  The state is authorized to   
   >>>> set requirements before granting license.   
   >>>   
   >>> The state does not grant students permission to play soccer.   
   >>   
   >> The state, in the form of the school, gives permission to the students   
   >> to play soccer on the school team.   
   >   
   >It's not a license.   
      
   It is license, not "a" license, which is merely a portable proof of   
   the fact of license.  Portable proof is not needed when only a couple   
   of people need to know whether you are allowed to participate.   
      
   >>>>> Yeah -- let's further alienate kids who are doing drugs.  That   
   >>>>> ought to help!   
   >>>>   
   >>>> They are choosing to alienate themselves.   
   >>>   
   >>> Aren't the schools supposed to help these kids?   
   >>   
   >> If they refuse to follow the rules?  No.   
   >   
   >If the kids aren't doing drugs at school, they aren't breaking school rules.   
      
   They are breaking the rules of society.  Schools are part of the   
   state, and the state has chosen to provide some services and some   
   enforcements via the schools for the sake of efficiency.   
      
   >>> To provide options?   
   >>   
   >> The option is to follow the rules.  OR ELSE!   
   >   
   >Oh, lord.  Kids test boundaries.  It's normal.  It happens.   
      
   And it should be penalized.  Then they will choose less offensive ways   
   to test boundaries.  Whereas if we don't set these limits, then they   
   will simply "test boundaries" in even more unacceptable ways.   
      
   >Destroying them for acting in what is really an age-appropriate manner is   
   stupid and cruel.   
      
   Do the crime, serve the time.  A teenager is a near adult, and in past   
   years was expected to assume the responsibilities of an adult years   
   before they got the rights of one.  It is time that they learn that   
   responsibility comes before privilege.   
      
   >>> No, we are creating a system that punishes those who most need our   
   >>> support.   
   >>   
   >> If they think that they need support, then they will follow the rules.   
   >   
   >Do you have kids?   
      
   Yes.   
      
   >Do you have a heart -- or a brain?  Do you know anything   
   >about the developmental stages of adolescence?   
      
   Adolescence is a modern invention.  In my genealogy work I see 13 and   
   14 year old girls married and having kids not all that long ago.   
      
   >>>>> If a teacher paddles a student, that teacher loses his job, and   
   >>>>> rightly so, imo.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> That wasn't the case when I was a kid.   
   >>>   
   >>> I know.   
   >>   
   >> So you should not be saying that things are getting worse, when in   
   >> fact society has gotten far more permissive.   
   >   
   >Huh?  I never said anything got worse, did I?   
      
   >>> Our schools are becoming more and more like mini-prisons.   
   Unless you *like* mini-prisons, that sounds like you think that things   
   are worse than they were.   
      
   It is precisely my perception that you think that things are worse   
   that causes me to argue so strongly.  This era has allowed kids their   
   closest approach to adult rights, while not expecting that they   
   concomitantly assume adult responsibilities in order to earn those   
   rights.   
      
   >Things have always been dreadful and always will be.   
      
   I may be a cynic, but I am not nearly such a pessimist.   
      
   >Actually, things are probably better now than   
   >they have ever been -- and they still suck.   
      
   So maybe it is your expectations that are out of line.   
      
   >>> Where do you get THAT from?  If you smoke marijuana, the drug could   
   >>> show up in your urine a month later.   
   >>   
   >> Then it is still affecting him.   
   >>   
   >>> Do you honestly think a person who smokes a joint is impaired a   
   >>> month later?   
   >>   
   >> If the law defines it such that he is, then yes.   
   >   
   >Do you have your own mind?   
      
   Yes.  I also know that words are like Humpty Dumpty makes them.  The   
   law is what defines impairment when the issue is lawbreaking.   
      
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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