6a5d6488   
   From: abaddon@purgatory.org.invalid   
      
   It was written by Steven Schneider   
      
   > New York Libertarians   
   >> Ördög   
   >>> Steven Schneider   
   >>>   
   >>> > "Prisoners Across US & Canada go on hunger and work strike to   
   >>> > protest no wages/low wages, end of solitary confinement, for   
   >>> > education programs & an end to mass incarceration"   
   >>> >...   
   >>> The USA has created the largest prison populations amongst the OECD   
   >>> countries.   
   >>> And what is even worse, capitalist corporations are driving this   
   >>> abusive (in)justice system for their profiteering greedy insanity by   
   >>> utilising utterly corrupt "law and order" politicians and   
   >>> scare-mongering / parnoid hysteria manufacturing mass-media outlets   
   >>> which are brain washing the politically naive/illiterate US masses.   
   >>>   
   >>>   
   >> Would that be the politically naive/illiterate US masses that voted in   
   >> Obama twice?   
   >   
   > After adjusting the rules in my Score file, I'm finally able to see   
   > replies to my posts by the Grouper. I still won't be able to see any   
   > original posts by the Grouper or replies they make to threads that I'm   
   > not a part of. They also need to learn to wrap their lines....   
   >   
   > The only thing worth of note here is that the Grouper seems to think   
   > that mentioning Obama is some sort of "gotcha!" Obama was a rightest   
   > too, as are most of the Democratic party and the Republican party.   
   > Of course the masses were naive to vote for Obama and expect non   
   > right-wing policies. This was a pitiful gambit on the part of the   
   > Grouper.   
      
   In the USA anyone even just slightly left of Ganghis Kahn is accused of   
   being a Leftist.   
   As I have many times already stated in this newsgroup, both the   
   Republicans and the Democrats are located quite on the right of the   
   political spectrum, the difference between them is only in the degree of   
   how far right they are even in comparison of the European rightwing   
   parties.   
   I believe that people had too much expectations of Obama, and even if he   
   had been following political leftist policies (which he clearly WAS NOT)   
   he would has been frustrated in each and every step by the obstructionist   
   tactics in the US Congress/Senate which are run by rather corrupt and   
   extreme conservative plutocratic politicians from the members of both   
   major political parties.   
      
   >> Have some respect for the failings of democracy. The US (and world   
   >> democracies) has been bankrupted by democracy.   
   >>   
   > Being a right-wing libertarian the Grouper is conflating democracy with   
   > mob rule, a standard right-wing ancap canard. They then say that people   
   > wanting silly things such as free healthcare, public education,   
   > environmental regulations and the like would bankrupt the economy via a   
   > quote from a not-so-great philosopher. Yet, there's always money the   
   > 0.1%, and there's always money for wars. This talking point is as   
   > flaccid as it is stale.   
   >   
   > For example, a Nationalized Healthcare system is more efficient and less   
   > expensive than a free-market one. While there remain elements of private   
   > ownership, it still illustrates the point that the Grouper is factually   
   > wrong.   
   >   
   > "_Facts about National Health Insurance (NHI) You Might Not Know_   
   >   
   > The health care delivery system remains private. As opposed to a   
   > national health service, where the government employs doctors, in a   
   > national health insurance system, the government is billed, but doctors   
   > remain in private practice.   
   >   
   > A national health insurance program could save approximately $150   
   > billion on paperwork alone. Because of the administrative complexities   
   > in our current system, over 25% of every health care dollar goes to   
   > marketing, billing, utilization review, and other forms of waste. A   
   > single-payer system could reduce administrative costs greatly.   
   >   
   > Most businesses would save money. Because a single-payer system is more   
   > efficient than our current system, health care costs are less,   
   > and therefore, businesses save money. In Canada, the three major auto   
   > manufacturers (Ford, GM, and Daimler-Chrysler) have all publicly   
   > endorsed Canada’s single-payer health system from a business and   
   > financial standpoint. In the United States, Ford pays more for its   
   > workers health insurance than it does for the steel to make its cars.   
   >   
   > Under NHI, your insurance doesn’t depend on your job. Whether you’re a   
   > student, professor, or working part-time raising children, you’re   
   > provided with care. Not only does this lead to a healthier population,   
   > but it’s also beneficial from an economic standpoint: workers are   
   > less-tied to their employers, and those that dislike their current   
   > positions can find new work (where they would be happier and most likely   
   > more productive and efficient).   
   >   
   > _Myths about National Health Insurance (NHI)_   
   >   
   > The government would dictate how physicians practice medicine.   
   > In countries with a national health insurance system, physicians are   
   > rarely questioned about their medical practices (and usually only in   
   > cases of expected fraud). Compare it to today’s system, where doctors   
   > routinely have to ask an insurance company permission to perform   
   > procedures, prescribe certain medications, or run certain tests to help   
   > their patients.   
   >   
   > _Waits for services would be extremely long._   
   > Again, in countries with NHI, urgent care is always provided   
   > immediately. Other countries do experience some waits for elective   
   > procedures (like cataract removal), but maintaining the US’s same level   
   > of health expenditures (twice as much as the next-highest country),   
   > waits would be much shorter or even non-existent.   
   >   
   > _People will overutilize the system._   
   > Most estimates do indicate that there would be some increased   
   > utilization of the system (mostly from the 42 million people that are   
   > currently uninsured and therefore not receiving adequate health care),   
   > however the staggering savings from a single-payer system would easily   
   > compensate for this. (And remember, doctors still control most health   
   > care utilization. Patients don’t receive prescriptions or tests because   
   > they want them; they receive them because their doctors have deemed them   
   > appropriate.)   
   >   
   > _Government programs are wasteful and inefficient._   
   > Some are better than others, just as some businesses are better than   
   > others. Just to name a few of the most successful and helpful: the   
   > National Institutes of Health, the Centers for Disease Control, and   
   > Social Security. Even consider Medicare, the government program for the   
   > elderly; its overhead is approximately 3%, while in private insurance   
   > companies, overhead and profits add up to 15-25%."   
   >   
   > *Single-Payer Myths; Single-Payer Facts*   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)