XPost: alt.politics.socialism, alt.politics, alt.politics.republican   
   XPost: alt.politics.liberalism   
   From: Crazy_Bastard@Yahoo.com   
      
   "Haines Brown"  wrote in message   
   news:87vehli3c4.fsf@teufel.hartford-hwp.com...   
   > "Patriot Games"  writes:   
   >> "uri"  wrote in message   
   >> news:1172659737.169399.248360@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...   
   >> > For true communism to work some things of value will need to be   
   >> > collective property like water resources, land, forestry and food   
   >> > resources. The means of production (like raw materials, the   
   >> > machines, buildings and land) will be collective property also.   
   >> Never gonna happen here, or anywhere else either.   
   >> Communism's time has come and gone...   
   > I always wonder about arguments that assume ideological positions are   
   > like automobiles that we can say work or don't work.   
   > Communism is essentially the ideology most appropriate for the   
   > circumstances of the modern working class. You might argue that this   
   > ideology is delusional, wrong, or irrelevant, but it remains that   
   > there is no other ideology that represents the modern working   
   > class. How we see the world might be criticized in any number of ways,   
   > but it is not something that "works". It expresses our ideals, values   
   > and aims - it expresses ourselves, rather than being a kind of   
   > instrument external to us.   
      
   People who own the means of production are not going to give them up for   
   free.  The gov't will have to buy them or take them.   
      
   In America the gov't can't afford to buy them and the armed citizenry won't   
   let them take them.   
      
   Therefore, Communism is never gonna happen anywhere else on Earth except   
   where it already exists OR where the means of production are NOT already   
   owned by people.   
      
   Therefore, Communism's time has come and gone...   
      
   > 1. If communism is the only ideology specific to the modern working   
   >   class, then to say that communism's time has come and gone in   
   >   effect says that the time when the working class might have won   
   >   control over the course of history has come and gone. That is what   
   >   should be argued honestly and not hidden under the cover of   
   >   anti-communism. Anti-communism usually simply masks an   
   >   anti-working-class bias.   
      
   Everybody has a vote, there is no such thing as a class having control of   
   history,   
      
   > 2. Communism aims to go beyond class contradictions, and no other   
   >   modern ideology proposes that. In other words, to argue that   
   >   communism is irrelevant is to assume that class society is a   
   >   necessary and permanent feature of human life. Only someone in the   
   >   ruling class or who aspires to that position could possibly   
   >   agree. No one in the working class (the great majority of people)   
   >   who thinks for himself, is sane and capable of any honesty, could   
   >   possibly go along with it.   
      
   There are no such things as class contradictions.  Capitalism is the only   
   ideology that provides the equal opportunity to anyone to achieve any class   
   level they wish to earn.   
      
   > 3. Communism aims at true democracy in the sense that everyone has   
   >   equal control over the means of production, which today has become   
   >   the real source of power.   
      
   Wrong.  Communism owns the means of production, in the form of the State.   
      
   >   To argue that communism is dead or   
   >   irrelevant is really an abandonment of the ideal of   
   >   democracy. Democracy in the context of the French Revolution was   
   >   political because most people owned some productive property; today   
   >   power is based more on economics than politics, and so what real   
   >   democracy means has changed. That is, the communist of today is the   
   >   true heir of the Enlightenment under new circumstances.   
      
   Who cares about the French?  Nobody....   
      
   > The real issue here is whether the great majority of people can   
   > reasonably aspire to control their own fate, whether being under the   
   > domination others is a desirable or necessary situation in life, and   
   > whether the dream of liberty remains valid.   
      
   The real issue is that Communism has been halted.  There will be no more new   
   communist governments.  Its time has come and gone.  As Capitalism continues   
   to flourish Communism will continue to fail.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)