XPost: alt.anarchism, alt.politics, alt.politics.socialism   
   XPost: alt.politics.liberalism   
   From: jamesd@echeque.com   
      
   James A. Donald   
   > > > > But if you abolish money and keep on living like   
   > > > > we do in the modern world, this requires a   
   > > > > central plan to manage "the commons" -   
      
   "Roger Johansson"   
   > > > No, each individual decides for him/herself what   
   > > > to do.   
      
   James A. Donald   
   > > But this only works with the primitivest commons, of   
   > > digging up roots with a digging stick.   
      
   "Roger Johansson"   
   > Obviously you cannot imagine a modern society where   
   > all work is voluntary.   
      
   All work is voluntary right now.  I can also imagine a   
   society where all work is voluntary and *unpaid*.  It   
   has actually been tried, for example "New Harmony".   
   Unsurprisingly, nothing got done, in part because people   
   goofed off, and in part because people disagreed on what   
   should be done, and spent all their time debating it   
   instead of doing it.   
      
   In order to make this work, you are going to need to   
   make a new man, new socialist man, in a massive   
   "re-education" effort, which will presumably require   
   very large numbers of people to be sent to re-education   
   camps.   
      
   > Try to make this thought experiment. Imagine that we   
   > abolish the use of money tomorrow, but we ask   
   > everybody to continue to do what they normally do.   
      
   But, if no one is getting paid, few are going to show up   
   for work.   
      
   Unless of course, by "ask them" you mean that the   
   commissar who gets to decide who goes to re-education   
   camp asks them.   
      
   Indeed this experiment has been done, both in private   
   businesses going broke "We will pay you real soon now,   
   we just have to work something out with the banks", and   
   in entire socialist countries going broke.  With the   
   private companies, the employees left en masse, without   
   discussing the matter at all, taking office furnishings   
   with them in lieu of pay that they were owed.  In the   
   socialist countries, people stopped showing up, and the   
   government either collapsed or proceeded to terror,   
   torture, and mass murder.   
      
   Time after time, socialist countries have moved to a non   
   money economy, usually as a result of the government   
   issued money becoming worthless, as for example in the   
   "war communism" that Lenin blamed on Trotsky.  It was   
   invariably necessary to do more than "ask" people to   
   continue to do what they normally do.   
      
   James A. Donald   
   > > Building a car requires coordination - and you can   
   > > provide that coordination with money, the market   
   > > place and the manager, or else with the gulag, the   
   > > killing fields, and the commissar.   
      
   "Roger Johansson"   
   > Can't you imagine voluntary coordination?   
      
   Sure I can.  Market coordination is voluntary.  Imagine   
   for example:   
      
   One man raises sheep, one man grows apples, one man   
   makes shoes, and one man mines gold.  Left to themselves   
   they will exchange sheep and apples and shoes and gold.   
   For exchange, gold is handier, because it does not rot,   
   or run away, and it is small, so mostly they exchange   
   gold for sheep or shoes or apples, though sometimes they   
   will exchange sheep for shoes, etc.   
      
   After a while the sheepherder notices that they are   
   spending a lot of time and effort passing gold from one   
   hand to the next, storing gold, melting down small bits   
   of gold into larger bits, and subdividing large bits of   
   gold into smaller bits.   
      
   "Hey", he says.  "How about we forget about this gold,   
   except for jewelry and stuff, in fact forget about   
   exchanging stuff for stuff, and just *give* each other   
   sheep and shoes and apples"   
      
   "You first", the others reply   
      
   > If you are a construction worker you usually get   
   > building plans from engineers, so it is natural to   
   > keep on doing that, you just do it voluntarily now.   
   > You are directed by workplace coordinators as before,   
   > but now you do it voluntarily, and you can at any time   
   > refuse to do a certain job or leave the workplace.   
      
   But is already the case that you can at any time refuse   
   a certain job, or leave the workplace - but if you do   
   so, you will not get paid.   
      
   Now you are proposing to not pay anyone.  What is going   
   to happen?   
      
   > > Further, why should any workplace vote to produce   
   > > anything?  If money is abolished, what is in for   
   > > them?   
      
   > The satisfaction in doing something useful for the   
   > whole society,   
      
   As I said, been tried.   
      
   --   
     ----------------------   
   We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because   
   of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this   
   right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.   
      
   http://www.jim.com/      James A. Donald   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)