97badd2d   
   XPost: alt.anarchism, alt.politics, alt.politics.socialism   
   XPost: alt.politics.liberalism   
   From: mantar.feyelno@YourPantiesSirWilliamfrontiernet.net   
      
   On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 15:27:44 +0000, Haines Brown wrote:   
      
   > Your comments sound like Proudhon. His views seem little more than the   
   > implications of his rabid anti-semitism.   
      
    That horse has already been beaten in this group. (alt.anarchism) Cries   
   of anti-semitism about this or that figure are usually little more than an   
   ad-hominem. Vague claims that Proudhon's anti-semitism was somehow the   
   mortar with which he built his anarchist theory are even worse.   
    No, I think I'll defer to Emma Goldman and the other Jewish   
   anarchists of the past, who were far more interested in Proudhon's   
   political theories than what he said once or twice about Jews (in their   
   role in the banker class, I might add) in his private notes and letters.   
      
      
   > He was anti-democratic, ...   
      
    No more than most anarchists -- who prefer consensus to democracy, as the   
   latter involves abdication of one's will in order to accept the decisions   
   of the group. (Tyranny of the majority replacing Tyranny of the minority)   
    If consensus proves impossible, and compromise infeasible, then the group   
   has become too large and rather than imposing the will of the majority by   
   violence, the group should split into smaller, more manageable pieces.   
      
    What's more, Proudhon had seen that the French government went through   
   totalitarian dictatorship, through a corrupt representative democracy, and   
   then on to a direct democracy in which the overburdened people threw up   
   their hands and elected a new dictator -- again and again.   
    There's plenty to like about democracy, but plenty to criticize.   
      
   > ... a counter-revolutonary, ...   
      
    Counter-marxist revolutionary, perhaps.   
      
   > ...and was in favor of slavery in the U.S.   
      
    Cite please? Even if true, it's rather like saying that since Thomas   
   Jefferson had slaves, "all men are created equal" means nothing and every   
   american citizen should explicitly disavow Thomas Jefferson or people will   
   assume that they love slavery.   
      
    Political philosophy does not depend upon the veneration of saints. The   
   imperfections of the past are not grounds for self-flagellation and   
   moralizing purges.   
      
    The perfect is the enemy of the good.   
      
   > Since I'm confident you hold to none of these views, you might care to   
   > distinguish your position from his   
      
    I see. Proudhon beats his wife, so you'd better distance yourself from   
   him or we'll know what your marriage is like!   
      
      
   > Proudhon's ideas played a role in nascent fascism, ...   
      
    What? How? By opposing Marxism? Anarchism is no friend to fascists.   
   They kill us, just like Marxists do. I can't see how "no rule of man over   
   man" could possibly "play a role" in the rise of totalitarian   
   corporate-military states, other than the role of opposing it.   
      
    Hell, for a contrast, Marxism in the form of the Soviet Union did "play a   
   role in nascent fascism," by withdrawing its support of the anti-fascist   
   coalition in Spain. Without arms and supplies the republicans, anarchists,   
   and (anti-bolshevik) communists of the coalition were left to fend for   
   themselves against the military might of Franco and his Italian and German   
   allies.   
      
   > ...from which I suspect you would also like to distance yourself.   
      
    Wow. Mention (or even imply) Proudhon and now you have to disavow being   
   a Nazi, too? This is getting better and better.   
      
    Do you always attack the messenger, or is Proudhon just your particular   
   crazy-button?   
      
   --   
    - Mantar  --- Drop YourPantiesSirWilliam to email me.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)