XPost: alt.politics.socialism, alt.politics   
   From: joshb@xs4all.nl   
      
   ["Followup-To:" header set to alt.politics.socialism.]   
   On 2007-04-20, Roger Johansson  wrote:   
   > On Apr 19, 8:05 pm, "J.H.Boersema"  wrote:   
   >> > Modern production of meatballs is also a computerized process. If we   
   >> > need more meatballs we increase the production, for example by COPYING   
   >> > the process elsewhere. Note that if we have already developed a   
   >> > process for mass production of meatballs we can easily COPY the   
   >> > process, just like we copy computer programs, songs, movies,   
   >> > paintings, etc..   
   > -   
   >> I agree, we are getting to a stage where almost everything can be   
   >> automatically produced (except the pleasure of consumption). That would   
   >> leave only one problem: who will control it all.   
   > -   
   > The people in a factory decide democratically what to do, but each   
   > individual is free to participate only in projects he likes.   
   > -   
   > There is no need for a central control system. The people who work in   
   > a supermarket can see what they need more of, and what they need less   
   > of, so they send messages through internet to the distributors.   
   > -   
   > The distributors send messages to the factories so the production is   
   > increased or decreased as needed.   
   > -   
   > If more workers are needed in the hospitals or in the steel industry   
   > the workplaces send messages to the media channels, asking them to   
   > tell the public about the need, and more people volunteer for that   
   > kind of work.   
   > The modern society is a big organism, where each volunteer does his   
   > little bit.   
   > A bus driver comes to work and drives buses, while other people work   
   > in farms to make food, others work in the transport system or in the   
   > meatball industry, others make clothes and shoes, other work in the   
   > water supply system, etc..   
   > -   
   > Information is sent from all units to the units who need that   
   > information so they know what is needed.   
   > -   
   > The system I propose is already in place and is working, we only need   
   > to remove the money system, which does not produce anything useful.   
      
   I have to say that I agree with your vision, and the things you want   
   are the things I'm trying to achieve within my system. The difference   
   is that in my system society is organized like many creative modules   
   (companies), which die and spring to live when needed, when the markets   
   have a need for it. I don't believe money itself is a problem, and I   
   think that in your system you will in fact have a lot of informal   
   trade. Eventually this may lead to gold becoming innoficial currency   
   again, which may even lead to speculation and a return of capitalism.   
      
   Essentially your system requires "good behavior" as a prerequisite of   
   the people, but many people don't have enough of it to make it work   
   I'm afraid. If the people did have the needed skill for your world,   
   the world would already be OK I think.   
      
   My system does not require "good behavior" at all, that was the goal   
   of it: to make a system that is fair (more fair), and protects the   
   majority against minority abuses and innocent mistakes (like stock   
   market gambling which many people probably don't realize is harmful).   
      
   > Google webring.   
   >   
   > I think the newsgroup alt.society.futures is a good place to present   
   > new political programs, because it is available to everybody who have   
   > internet, the content is saved forever, it makes it possible to search   
   > among the messages.   
      
   That is true for all/most of Usenet, including this group.   
      
   > I am old and ill, so my work capacity is limited.   
   > On the other hand, I have a lot of experience.   
   > I was an experienced political debater and organizer already in the 60-   
   > ies.   
   >   
   > An advice from me about your website: The pictures, the hammer and the   
   > sickle, the jewish star, will make a lot of people leave your web site   
   > before reading a single word. They get the impression that the web   
   > site is some kind of extremist site, bolsjevik communist, or a jewish   
   > zionist or anti-jewish fascist web site.   
   >   
   > There are two big mistakes you need to avoid when working politically.   
   > To out-define yourself or in-define yourself.   
   >   
   > The pictures at your web site out-define you from normal people.   
   > They don't want to get involved in anything which looks like some   
   > extremist web site.   
   >   
   > Your text, on the other hand, looks like it in-defines you, because it   
   > looks too much alike any old constitution text. You need to make it   
   > clear already in the first sentences of the text what the difference   
   > is, compared to other constitutions, and why that is so good.   
      
   You are probably right about these things. I did change the hammer and   
   sickle to something else BTW, to get rid of the plan-economy ...   
   strangely the plan-economy is in your system while it isn't in mine,   
   making your system more late-USSR then mine .... But I'm not a   
   propagandist and I really don't care what people who go after first   
   impressions think (especially in the west). I am of course a communist   
   (social-democratic/free-market/communist), because I favor a better   
   world without capitalism. I sympathize with anti-zionist Judaism, but   
   why and how the Jews are claiming a double triangle I don't   
   care. Before they came to more exclusively use it, it was apparently   
   a common symbol. It is a double triangle and therefore a symbol that   
   is beyond any claim, it is too simple. The double triangle only became   
   fashionable in Jewry recently, I will simply outcompete any negative   
   meaning of it in the long run. I feel that the current culture is   
   extremely shallow, it is like leaves in the wind. Litle of it has   
   lasting value, so litle is there to be bothered about in the long run.   
   Why cut my future hand for todays whims and cultural nonsense. I want   
   to do it right, irrespective on the smear others put on whatever. That   
   smear will wash off, because it has no lasting value or lasting logic.   
   If that takes a generation, that'll be quick. Results I expect in 40   
   to 65 years, most people in power today will be dead.   
      
   Then there aren't a whole lot of symbols that can represent democracy,   
   the Omega (scales), double triangle (david star) and cup shape   
   (weaker) are the only things I could come up with, so be it. The   
   double-triangle is a play on the pyramid shape of organizations. If   
   the actions of the state of Israel cast a bad light on these things,   
   so be it, I don't care and it isn't my responsibility.  There simply   
   aren't enough choices.   
      
   It also doesn't matter to me how people who listen to mainstream media   
   are preconditioned (in this century), it is their choice to listen   
   to these media and as a result are being preconditioned or think in   
   extremes and enemies. That is their choice and their concequences,   
   I don't care about it. If that means my system will never be real,   
   then that's fine with me. I guess a better world has to be earned   
   in some sense, you have to work for it. Like the slow trickle will   
   hollow out the stone, I'll simply say the same thing for decades,   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)