XPost: alt.politics.socialism.trotsky, alt.philosophy.debate, al   
   .politics.socialism   
   XPost: alt.society.futures   
   From: laojim@peoplepc.com   
      
   On Thu, 03 May 2007 14:26:27 -0700, Roger Johansson    
   wrote:   
      
   > On May 3, 5:38 pm, Haines Brown    
   > wrote:   
   >   
   >> My understanding is that Marx saw capitalism as consisting of two   
   >   
   > Digging through old ideologies is not a fruitful method to build a   
   > better society.   
   >   
   > I suggest we use another method. Start with our design goals, like   
   > engineers.   
   >   
   > We want a society which gives a maximum of individual freedom to every   
   > individual, because you want individual freedom, I want it, and most   
   > other people want it.   
   >   
   This is erroneous.   
      
   You select a goal couched not in terms of some objective state of affairs,   
   but in terms of ideology.  Sure we want "individual freedom" but we all   
   want other things too like, just to suggest a few, justice, peace,   
   security, opportunity, emotional satisfaction, money, food, and so on.  As   
   you couch your goals my ox is gored so you can exercise your freedom and   
   that just won't do.  I don't want the Yanks free to invade whoever they   
   want, endless examples are possible.  The old joke is about the New   
   Hampshire driver who won't stop to help when you have a flat tire because   
   he doesn't want to interfere with your right to have a flat tire.   
      
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    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)