XPost: alt.philosophy, alt.politics.socialism, alt.politics   
   From: plato5@dreft.org   
      
   Roger Johansson wrote:   
   > On Jul 1, 9:40 pm, uri  wrote:   
   >   
   >>  it only works with small   
   >> societies but not large and especially industrialized ones we live in   
   >> today.   
   >   
   > You are wrong about that, and you repeat an old slogan for the   
   > christian community or the stone-age tribal society where social power   
   > ruled the small group and the toughest and most ruthless and devoted   
   > fanatics had the power.   
   >   
   > The modern secularized society has relieved itself from such   
   > traditional tribe rule or religious groups type of societies.   
   >   
   > Individual freedom and voluntary work actually works a lot better in a   
   > modern society, because the old tribal and religious elites cannot   
   > control individuals in a modern society.   
   >   
   > Real individual freedom needs the material freedom I have already   
   > mentioned, but it also needs freedom from the tribal or religious   
   > elites which usually control small groups of people.   
   >   
   >> Resources are finite, and to distribute these resources equally   
   >> among all peoples is a near impossible task.   
   >   
   > You are wrong about that too.   
   > Let's look at the most important resource, food.   
   > We have produced too much food for 50 years now, and we are doing   
   > everything possible to reduce the production of food.   
   >   
   > Electrical power plants are fueled with wheat, barley and other grain.   
   > Private houses are heated with oilburners, but woodpellets is a   
   > cheaper fuel, and now they sell specially adapted burner units for   
   > grains like wheat and barley, because that fuel is even cheaper than   
   > wood pellets.   
   >   
   > EU and other parts of the world are cutting down further on farm   
   > subsidies to reduce the amount of food produced, so we do not have to   
   > burn the food we do not need.   
   >   
   > A lot  of people want to live on a farm in the country, and farm   
   > machines are becoming computer controlled, so it is very easy to plow   
   > a giant field without even having to ride along in the tractor, the   
   > tractor or combiner is computer controlled and gps-steered.   
   >   
   > So we have a lot of voluntary farm workers, and the need for manual   
   > labor is reduced very much, and we already produce far too much food.   
   >   
   > I don't reply to the rest of your article because I feel it is enough   
   > to show that you are totally wrong in the first two assumptions you   
   > write.   
   >   
   > You added some newsgroups so I repeat my first article which many of   
   > the new readers never saw:   
   >   
   > On Jun 21, 4:35 pm, socratus  wrote:   
   >   
   >> =========.   
   >> Once N. Bohr said, if a theory was right it had to be   
   >> " crazy " enough.   
   >   
   > No, it was Einstein who said;   
   > "If a new theory doesn't at first sound absurd it is no use wasting   
   > any time on it, because then it is not really new at all."   
   >   
   > Abolish money, make all work voluntary, let everybody register equal   
   > amounts of property. Make democracy transparent and participative,   
   > and   
   > democratic institutions cannot tell anybody what to do, because every   
   > person has the right to think for himself, or herself, and decide for   
   > himself what to do, or not to do.   
   >   
   > Individual freedom is what we all need most.   
   > The power cannot be more de-centralized than if everybody rules him/   
   > herself.   
   >   
   > That is a new social order which sounds absurd enough to be really   
   > new   
   > and worth considering.   
   >   
   > Equal Property   
   >   
   > Voluntary Work   
   >   
   > Individual freedom is the most important goal of the new soci­   
   > ety.   
   >   
   > So there is no need for money.   
   > We can forget about all problems and violence which money caused.   
   >   
   > The car register and the land and house register becomes the prop­   
   > erty register. Everybody can register property up to the same   
   > limit as everybody else. Food and clothes are free to get in the   
   > shops.   
   >   
   > Individual freedom and democracy can easily be combined when   
   > the democratic institutions have no power over the individuals.   
   >   
   > The commune council can decide that a new bridge over the river   
   > should be built. They send this suggestion to the technical of­   
   > fice for consideration. If enough workers there want to partici­   
   > pate in building the new bridge it will be built.   
   >   
   > The democracy is transparent and participative, which means   
   > that the citizens are able to see all plans long before a decision   
   > and can participate in the debate about a new bridge or whatever   
   > the commune council wants to decide.   
   >   
   > The only cases when the individual freedom can be restricted is   
   > if somebody uses violence or threats, or is driving on the wrong   
   > side of the road endangering other people's lives. Or if somebody   
   > engages in destructive behavior, like burns down houses or de­   
   > stroys common resources.   
   >   
   > If people are doing bad things for what they perceive are good   
   > causes, like bullying weak people, we must explain to them why   
   > they are wrong, and that their ideas is exactly what lead to capi­   
   > talism, inequality and an authoritarian society.   
   >   
   > http://wikihost.org/wikis/program/wiki/start   
   >   
   >   
   > --   
   > Roger J.   
   >   
      
   Sounds like real democracy to me and not the fake democracy we live in.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)