XPost: alt.philosophy, alt.politics.socialism, alt.politics   
   From: plato5@dreft.org   
      
   Roger Johansson wrote:   
   > On Jul 2, 4:27 pm, zinnic  wrote:   
   >   
   >>> We need to give them an alternative, explain to them that it could all   
   >>> be different, and explain it in concrete and simple practical terms so   
   >>> they understand how life would be in the new society.   
   >>> There would still be people producing and transporting food, there   
   >>> would still be supermarkets and car shops, the buses and trains would   
   >>> still be running, the hospitals and schools would still work, but   
   >>> everybody who works would be working voluntarily. No money would   
   >>> exist, you don't have to worry about being robbed or killed for money,   
   >>> you don't have to pay for anything.   
   >   
   >   
   >> Sure, that is what "WE" need to give "THEM!   
   >   
   > People exchange ideas all the time. Those who have better arguments   
   > and better ideas should, of course spread them too.   
   >   
   >> Isn't that what "THEY "tried to give "US" in previous attempts to   
   >   
   > Earlier attempts to create a society has been greatly influenced by   
   > power elites, like the rich, the church, the militaries, but also by   
   > idealists, like Jefferson, who managed to influence the american   
   > constitution in a positive way. but he had to compromise with the   
   > different power groups.   
   >   
   > The society I talk about will have no central power, because everybody   
   > will decide for themselves. Some old power groups, like the rich and   
   > the church may not like that they will lose a lot of power over the   
   > people, but a lot of people in those power groups will also realize   
   > that this is a better way to organize our world, and support the new   
   > ideas.   
   >   
   >> create ideal societies? Societies  based on the barren intellectual   
   >> theory that human behaviour is not natural but is totally conditioned.   
   >   
   > I think human behavior is shaped very much by the rules in the society   
   > they live in. If the rule is to be selfish and amass as much money as   
   > possible for yourself people will do that. Some will even murder for   
   > money.   
      
   I don't think money or property is the problem.   
   But what can be privately owned or communal owned must be redefined.   
   Before money people were using fur or shells as a currency.   
   The ancient Greek Athenian society had capitalism but cutting an olive   
   grove even if it was yours was punished harshly and while they had   
   slaves overly punishing a slave was fined too.   
   When silver was found south of Athens and mined, that silver belonged to   
   all Athenians.   
   Lets keep the system we have but make it more transparent.   
   Citizens have the right to know how and what decisions are made based on   
   what informations.   
   Keep the voting system but if the one you vote is not doing his job he   
   should be voted out again and replaced by a better one.   
   I don't have nothing against democracy but ours is a fake one.   
   I have nothing against capitalism but what we have is a mafia style   
   capitalism.   
   I know from companies were the workers own 60-100% of the companies.   
   This is capitalism too.   
   I was working once for a billionaire.   
   You think he knew what decisions were made by the smaller bosses down there?   
   A social capitalism is in the longterm interest of the capitalist.   
      
   >   
   > If we change the rules the people will behave differently.   
   > If there are no banks to rob and nothing you can buy for money nobody   
   > will rob banks or try to amass money for themselves.   
   >   
   > If you cannot control people with the help of money of material gifts   
   > there can be no mafia and no authoritarian structures.   
   >   
   > If everybody already have the same amount of personal property, and   
   > all consumption stuff like food and clothes are free, there is no   
   > reason to steal or rob other people.   
   >   
   > --   
   > Roger J.   
   >   
      
   Any radical change will be disastrous but a society that is not changing   
   fast enough will be replaced by one other.   
   It's good to be an idealist but let room for others too who might have   
   different ideas.   
   The right combination of realism, idealism.   
   But what is real?   
   Gold has only a value if you give it a value.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)