XPost: alt.philosophy, alt.politics.socialism, alt.politics   
   From: plato5@dreft.org   
      
   mark.evins@gmail.com wrote:   
   > On Jul 3, 8:08 pm, Roger Johansson  wrote:   
   >> On Jul 4, 12:34 am, tg  wrote:   
   >>   
   >>> Well Roger I think you are missing the matter of energy. We are like a   
   >>> rich child going through the inheritance of fossil fuels, which is the   
   >>> only reason there are all the things you talk about. I know that in   
   >>> one Scandanavian country ( you know this stuff better than I do I'm   
   >>> sure) they plan to get all their electricity from wood in the near   
   >>> future, but we are not all so lucky as to have such a renewable   
   >>> resource. Please consider this in your analysis; there is no abundance   
   >>> even of food without the use of fossil energy, and the associated   
   >>> disturbance of our metastable climate mechanisms.   
   >> I am educated as an electronics engineer, and this includes a lot of   
   >> knowledge about physics in general, math and some chemistry.   
   >>   
   >> I know the physical and technical limitations we are dealing with, and   
   >> our possibilities to produce more energy are practically endless.   
   >   
   > um...  no.   
   >   
   >> The powerful oil industry has downplayed and sabotaged the development   
   >> of other sources of fuel, to keep the price of oil high, for example   
   >> they have spread a lot of scare propaganda about nuclear energy.   
   >>   
   >> Today we have many choices like wind and wave energy, solar energy,   
   >> fast growing forest energy, etc..   
   >   
   > There came a time in England when so much wood had been consumed that   
   > it was a high crime to cut wood. The land was nearly barren of trees.   
   > A visiting Cardinal reported back to Rome that the people of England   
   > were so poor that they burned rocks as fuel.   
   > That was coal.   
   > Coal produced much more energy than it's production consumed, and it   
   > was thus a cheap source of fuel.   
   > Oil was even better.   
   >   
   > But a funny thing happens to natural resources. They run out. We've   
   > reached the point where it's beginning to cost as much to produce fuel   
   > as the fuel itself provides. The demand increases but the production   
   > can't. In fact, shortly it will begin to fall behind, then further   
   > behind, then even further...   
   >   
   >   
   >> The fact that nuclear power plants are shut down for no good reason at   
   >> all is a sign of the fact that there is absolutely no lack of energy.   
   >> We have a couple of totally modern nuclear power plants in my country   
   >> standing still instead of producing Gigawatts of power.   
   >>   
   >> But the producers of energy want to keep the price of energy high,   
   >> like the producers of anything under capitalism, that is the reason   
   >> why we are not producing a lot more energy in many different ways.   
   >>   
   >> Wind and wave generators outside the coast of Alaska could produce   
   >> enough energy for several east coast cities, for example.   
   >>   
   >> We could also tap into the hot center of the earth, pump down water   
   >> and get high pressure overheated steam in return.   
   >>   
   >> Wind generators in the carribean and outside the southeast coast of   
   >> USA could suck energy out of the hurricanes and at the same time   
   >> decrease the damage done by the hurricanes.   
   >   
   > One problem of all of these technologies is that it costs more (in   
   > energy) to produce the machines than the machines produce.   
   > Solar power is not sufficient to smelt the ores necessary to make the   
   > equipment to generate the power.   
      
   The French use solar power to smelt metal.   
   They made a solar furnace.   
   A German factory is using the energy from solar panels to produce solar   
   panels.   
      
   > Windmills are hazardous to wildlife on top of being unable to produce   
   > enough energy to make the machines.   
      
   20% of the electric energy is made by windmills in Denmark.   
   Within the next 20 years it should raise to 50%.   
      
   > Bio fuels are useful, but as the demand for the biofuels increases the   
   > cost will necessarily rise as we'll be turning food into machines and   
   > thus competing with ourselves for the food and fuel.   
      
   Efficiency comes here in to play too.   
   Those factories that produce bio fuels are getting more efficient.   
   90% of the houses in Greece use solar power for hot water.   
   It work 10-10 1/2 months a year.   
      
   >   
   > As oil disappears, so will the various chemicals and polymers produced   
   > from petroleum and it's byproducts. This will inevitably result in a   
   > higher energy cost to transport the food/fuel, to produce the food/   
   > fuel (agribusiness relies on fertilizers made from petroleum).   
   > Medical costs will rise as the materials of the trade become more   
   > expensive due to the scarcity of petro-chemicals and plastics and etc.   
      
   I visited once a farmer who was growing biodynamically grown food.   
   His apples were the biggest and were testing great.   
   Compost can be used to fertilize the fields.   
      
   >   
   >   
   >   
   >> Outside coasts which are eroded we can put wave generators which suck   
   >> the energy out of the waves, to get electricity and decrease the   
   >> damage done by the waves.   
   >>   
   >> There are so many technical possibilities that we have no reason at   
   >> all to worry about a lack of energy.   
   >>   
   >> Technically there are no limits, all the rest is politics.   
   >   
   > There are limits. Only so much of any commodity is ever available for   
   > any demand. So long as supply outstrips demand, there is growth. Once   
   > demand outstrips supply, there is regression. If you turn all our food   
   > into fuel, what do we eat then?  Once the artificial fertilizers are   
   > gone, how do you grow all that food to begin with?   
      
   Compost and manure   
      
   > After you can smelt no more metals, how do you even build the tools to   
   > generate the power to live a reduced energy life?   
      
   Recycle old metals.   
      
   >   
   > Your vision is sophomoric in it's failure to address real world   
   > issues. It's even worse when stacked against some undefined authority   
   > who will supervise and oversee how much of everything that everybody   
   > owns.   
   >   
   > So, step up and answer the tough questions about administraton,   
   > bureaucracy, police power, laws, etc.   
      
   The campaign during election time should be paid by the tax payer   
   otherwise it will be paid by the super rich to who then the " elected "   
   politician would have to repay for the favor.   
   The tax payer is loosing that way 100 times more money.   
   It's in the interest of the bureaucrats to have things complicated   
   otherwise they would loose their jobs.   
   Take away the consensual crimes ( who fucks who and who or what you eat,   
   drink or smoke .. ) and you would have 50% less crime.   
   Have legislated power.   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)