XPost: alt.politics, alt.politics.socialism, alt.anarchism   
   From: briquenoir@freeuk.c0m   
      
   James A. Donald  wrote in message   
   news:dm5oa353666fm7isg9gv3m1e8tavk57nun@4ax.com...   
   > James A. Donald   
   > > > Before the twentieth century, really serious famines   
   > > > were caused by  war, socialism and natural   
   > > > disasters.   
   >   
   > "brique"   
   > > Socialism before the 20C...... that Marx was damn   
   > > good, wasn't he   
   >   
   > Socialism goes a long way back.  Shakespeare's Jack Cade   
   > is a hostile parody of a socialist insurrectionist.  The   
   > Plymouth pilgrim settlers starved in an socialist   
   > famine.  Even the classic greeks had a go at socialism,   
   > though we do not have much details of that story - just   
   > that it ended badly.   
   >   
   > In their famine, the pilgrims appointed a new leader,   
   > William Bradford, on the platform that he would make   
   > socialism work by applying sufficiently harsh   
   > punishments and sufficiently stern discipline, but   
   > instead he dismantled socialism, writing:   
   > : : The experience that was had in this common   
   > : : course and condition, tried sundry years and   
   > : : that amongst godly and sober men, may well   
   > : : evince the vanity of that conceit of Plato's   
   > : : and other ancients applauded by some of later   
   > : : times; that the taking away of property and   
   > : : bringing in community into a commonwealth   
   > : : would make them happy and flourishing; as if   
   > : : they were wiser than God. For this community   
   > : : (so far as it was) was found to breed much   
   > : : confusion and discontent and retard much   
   > : : employment that would have been to their   
   > : : benefit and comfort. For the young men, that   
   > : : were most able and fit for labour and   
   > : : service, did repine that they should spend   
   > : : their time and strength to work for other   
   > : : men's wives and children without any   
   > : : recompense."   
   >   
   > James A. Donald:   
   > > > Today, humans are stronger, and nature weaker, so   
   > > > really serious famines are only caused by war and   
   > > > socialism, only caused by willful and intentional   
   > > > human evil, not by the blind indifference of the   
   > > > natural universe   
   >   
   > "brique"   
   > > And, of course, not due to the blind indifference of   
   > > the market place.... which happily saw food exported   
   > > from famine zones of India, Ireland, Ethiopia and   
   > > China...... regardless of the poltical label you stick   
   > > on the economy.....   
   >   
   > The market place is simply people doing what they   
   > choose, so is not blind or indifferent - as the record   
   > of hunger and famine wherever you lot get to interfere   
   > with the marketplace shows.   
      
    The market _must_ be blind and indifferent to work, you twat. It can not   
   care for daft notions such as feeding those who can not pay the market price   
   for goods. It cannot care if a political decision to export food to gain   
   foreign currency to purchase goods in foreign markets drives the famine.   
   neither does it care if war drives the famine or disease or pestilence. All   
   it does is balance local supply and local demand. The outcome of such a   
   balance is immaterial to the 'market', it works by rationing goods by way of   
   pricing until some other force brings about a new environment and a change   
   in that supply or demand, which can be large scale aid convoys arriving from   
   elsewhere thereby increasign supply, or half the local population starving   
   to death and thus reducing demand.   
      
   The 'free market' has no moral dimension of itself. That is what   
   'interference' _is_: the application of a force into the 'market' to modify   
   outcomes for a percieved moral benefit. Not so strangely, you percieve such   
   'interference' to be 'socialist'. Which is your silly binary view of reality   
   intruding once again. All sorts of 'interference' occurs in the   
   'marketplace', most you dont mind so you dismiss them as unimportant, some   
   work for your own personal benefit so you accept them as ';natural', those   
   you feel do not benefit you personally are 'socialist' and morally   
   reprehensible.   
      
   Get real James.... you are just a self-obsessed twat who tweaks his reality   
   to meet his own needs. You would be as happy accomodating the moral kinks   
   necessary to shovel jews into gas chambers if you thought it would benefit   
   you, we know you danced with the devil in your youth, adored the death mask   
   of trotsky and kissed the arse of communism daily. Lo. what happened,? An   
   inheritance probably, suddenly James A Donald was a man of property and   
   lo..... now he dances with the capitalists, wears his finery and spouts the   
   catechism of personal greed and self-interest.   
      
   Hey, what will happen when you go broke? Will you resurrect your gleaming   
   armour of Marxian Purity and ride off into the sunset waving your Red Banner   
   proudly once again..?   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)