XPost: alt.politics, alt.politics.socialism, alt.anarchism   
   From: briquenoir@freeuk.c0m   
      
   James A. Donald  wrote in message   
   news:0ijsa3hn7nmmqtf29rb6p4aqt9le92svg6@4ax.com...   
   > James A. Donald:   
   > > > But, absent socialism, a political decision cannot   
   > > > drive the famine - for to *make* a political   
   > > > decision to export food, requires some degree of   
   > > > socialism, requires massive state violence against   
   > > > the marketplace, just as much as a political   
   > > > decision to feed the poor.  The classic and extreme   
   > > > example of a famine driven by such a political   
   > > > decision to export food was the Khmer Rouge famine.   
   >   
   >  "brique"   
   > > So, the British Empire was 'socialist'....   
   >   
   > The British Empire had no man made famines except those   
   > caused by foreign armies inflicting famine in the   
   > pursuit of military victory against the British- in the   
   > nineteenth century it had natural disaster famines, but   
   > as the power of men increased, and the power of nature   
   > decreased, no more famines.  All really serious   
   > twentieth century famines have been man made.  No   
   > substantial natural disaster famines occurred in the   
   > British empire in the twentieth century, and the British   
   > have never inflicted a man made famine.   
      
   Stretching definitions as ever, James.... no 'man-made famines', if one   
   excludes exporting food from the famine area as a cause of any shortage of   
   food. No 'man-made famines' if one excludes the refusal to allow relief   
   efforts as a cause of the intensification and prolonging of that famine. I   
   suppsoe the 'clear and burn' policy in the Boer farmlands was not a   
   'man-made famine' either, that was 'war'..oh, and forcing them into   
   concentration camps was not 'war', that was 'security'. Of course, when they   
   all starved due to lack of provision being made to feed them there, why,   
   that was..umm.. 'logistical difficulties'.... and when they died from   
   communicable diseases due to poor nutrition, filthy water, etc, etc.....   
   why... that was a 'nature disaster'.....   
      
   >   
   > James A. Donald:   
   > > > Equally, the classic and extreme example of a famine   
   > > > driven by a political decision to feed the poor was   
   > > > the Ukraine famine.  (The kulaks being defined as   
   > > > non poor, with the result that most of the western   
   > > > radical left of at that time had orgasms over the   
   > > > wonderful social justice taking place in Russia)   
   >   
   >  "brique"   
   > > Come on, you were a worshipper at the commisar's ass,   
   > > James.   
   >   
   > I opposed the Khmer Rouge famine, back when almost the   
   > entire western radical left, plus a large part of the   
   > supposedly moderate western left, for example the New   
   > York Times and a very large part of the Democrats,   
   > supported it.  Indeed, this issue was a large part of   
   > the reason why I committed heresy and apostasy against   
   > the left.   
      
   Well, whoopee for you..... such a hero.....   
      
   >   
   > > You know full well the background to the Ukranian   
   > > famine was the teaching of a stern lesson to those who   
   > > failed to welcome the Red Army with sufficent   
   > > adulation when, under Comrade Trotsky, they came to   
   > > 'liberate' them from their folly in kicking out the   
   > > White Russian Army themselves and foolishly thinking   
   > > that gave them some strange right to organise their   
   > > own affairs.   
   >   
   > What did those moderate gradualist socialists, the   
   > Fabians, have to say about the Ukraine famine?   
      
   Who cares? Do they speak for the world or any more of it than themselves?   
   Did they speak for you, or me, or next doors cat?   
      
   Still, they do make  a very nice strawman......   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)