9c0d92b1   
   XPost: alt.politics.radical-left, alt.politics.socialism, alt.po   
   itics.libertarian   
   XPost: talk.politics.libertarian   
   From: fred@fredwilliams.ca   
      
   On Friday 30 May 2008 17:56, Aardvark wrote:   
      
   > On May 30, 2:34 pm, apchera...@gmail.com wrote:   
   >> I used to be a libertarian. then I read some history books. now I'm   
   >> socialist.   
   >   
   > i guess you then like the idea of people being poor and eternally   
   > dependent on the state. no surprise there as it comes with the   
   > territory of being a socialist.   
   >   
           When the people *are* the state, there is no problem with them being   
   dependent on themselves.   
      
   > how utterly sad for you as you must be easily hoodwinked if you really   
   > were (i seriously doubt it) a former libertarian and reading some   
   > questionable "history books" turned you to a system of slavery and   
   > away from one of freedom and liberty.   
   >   
           When you are totally alone and powerless, then you are really "free,"   
   but who wants to be totally alone and powerless.  There are "free"   
   people starving to death on the streets in the U.S... and elsewhere.   
   When people start to work together as a team and provide for each   
   other, that's what we call a social contract.  That's how we build   
   society and grow to do things that none of us could do alone.  That's   
   how poor people become strong enough to get out from under the boot   
   heels of the oppressors.  Only by solidarity and organisation can we   
   really be free.  At it mean we owe a debt to our communities and   
   coworkers, but it's a different kind of freedom that means that we have   
   to care about others but also that they care about us.   
           Freedom means nothing if we're alone, fighting with our neighbours over   
   a few scraps that fall from the master's table.  Real freedom can only   
   come through some degree of socialism, because what we want is very   
   likely not too different from what our neighbours want.  So we don't   
   have to fear loosing anything, because we're all working for pretty   
   much the same things.  That's what it's about.   
      
   --   
   Peace,   
   Fred   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)