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   XPost: alt.politics, aus.politics, alt.religion   
   XPost: aus.religion   
   From: herpem@bigpond.com   
      
   "William T. Goat"  wrote in message   
   news:42f762b1-91c6-460e-8f40-7e92c7b92c30@q36g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...   
   > "Kate "  wrote in message   
   > news:49d0bf9b.1345794281@news-west.newscene.com...   
   > > On Sun, 01 Feb 2009 13:48:05 GMT, "HD"  wrote:   
   > >>"Kate "  wrote in message   
   > >>news:49cea36c.1338579328@news-west.newscene.com...   
   > >>> On Sun, 01 Feb 2009 03:43:07 GMT, "HD"  wrote:   
   > >>>>"Kate "  wrote in message   
   > >>>>news:49ccf6c7.1294382062@news-west.newscene.com...   
   > >>>>> On Sat, 31 Jan 2009 22:33:34 GMT, "HD"  wrote:   
   > >>>>>>"At that time many will call evil good and they will call good   
   > >>>>>>evil."   
   > >>>>> Precisely - if you rely on religion to tell you what's good,   
   > >>>>> eventually your progeny will disown you.   
   > >>>>Why?   
   > >>> Because what you did wasn't truly moral - religion isn't about   
   > >>> defining morality, it's about power and tribalism.   
   > >>If not religion, then who defines morality?   
   > >>Where does morality come from?   
   > > Our social genes.   
   > I'm not bible bashing but maybe the following is interestinng for you.   
   > The Bible says the following:   
   > When Gentiles who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law,   
   > these, although not having the law are a law to themselves   
   > Who show the work of the law written in their hearths, their conscience   
   > also   
   > bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else   
   > excusing them.   
   > In other words, social genes is God's law written in the hearth of man.   
      
      
   Then how do you explain the fact that human conscience contradicts   
   God's law?   
      
      
   It doesn't. There are many laws, some have nothing to do with Morality while   
   others were temporary laws important for a time.   
   It may surprise you, but you no longer have to make a burnt offering of an   
   Oxen otherwise your neighbours complain. You also can eat pork, but like the   
   ancient Beduins I would not eat wild pork without it being inspected for   
   muscle worms.   
      
      
      
      
   For example, God's law says that people should be stoned to death for   
   gathering firewood on Saturday. Does your conscience agree?   
      
   Think carefully: *IF* you equate God's law with morality itself, you   
   imply that everything prescribed by God's law is the morally *right*   
   thing to do. Stoning people to death for working on Saturday must be   
   *good*, otherwise it wouldn't be in God's law. But when you see   
   someone working on Saturday, does your conscience really urge you to   
   kill him? I bet it doesn’t. I bet your conscience calls that good   
   thing (stoning people to death) evil. "At that time many will call   
   evil good and they will call good evil."   
      
   Why would God give you a conscience that disagrees with His own law? I   
   can see (at least) three possibilities:   
      
   - The Law doesn't come from God.   
   - The conscience doesn't come from God.   
   - God’s Law is not morality.   
      
   > The Catholic church, rather than being authoritarian and controlling has   
   > this to say:   
   > From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:   
   > "20. Conscience, in Catholic teaching, is God's law written on the human   
   > heart (CCC 1777-1802). It is "the most secret core and sanctuary of a man"   
   > where "he is alone with God, Whose voice echoes in his depths." To obey   
   > conscience "is the very dignity of man; according to it he will be judged"   
   > (Gaudium et Spes 16). We are always obliged to follow our conscience   
   > because   
   > it is our last and best judgment about the morality of a particular act."   
      
   And yet, a recurring theme of the Bible is that God does *not* want   
   people to follow their conscience. God rewards obedience, not   
   morality.   
      
   "There is a way that seemeth right to a man; that way leads to   
   death."   
      
   > > Think about it - morality is about what helps the group over   
   > > individuals.   
   > Can you give me one example where Christian morality differs from this.   
      
      
   Luke 14:26.   
      
   --Billy   
      
   " But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over   
   them, bring hither, and slay them before me."   
   --Jesus Christ's morality, Luke 19:27   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)