XPost: soc.culture.scottish, soc.culture.irish, uk.media.tv.misc   
   From: peffers50@btinternet.com   
      
   "allan connochie"  wrote in message   
   news:44724424@news.greennet.net...   
   >   
   > "Westprog"  wrote in message   
   > news:e4pp3o$vch$1@news.datemas.de...   
   >>   
   >> "allan connochie"  wrote in message   
   >> news:4470f4ea@news.greennet.net...   
   >> ...   
   >> > I'll have to completely disagree with you on that. A mishmash of   
   >> > administrations would be just that a mishmash. Likely to cause chaos.   
   > For   
   >> a   
   >> > start just look at the Home Office remit and that is only one   
   >> > governemnt   
   >> > dept. You could quite easily have a government able to control half the   
   >> > office's remit and not the other half. As for the cost of a building   
   > well   
   >> if   
   >> > an English Parliament, or perhaps an English Grand Committee (which you   
   >> seem   
   >> > to be suggesting) wanted to squat in the UK Parliament when it's not in   
   >> > session then that is up to them - though quite how that would work   
   > eludes   
   >> > me. The point I was making was the working of the UK parliament   
   > shouldn't   
   >> > itself be a hostage to domestic English only issues.   
   >>   
   >> I agree that since there is huge constitutional overlap between the   
   > English   
   >> and British administrations, that it will be a big job to untangle it if   
   > the   
   >> constitutional problem is to be resolved. This applies whatever is done,   
   >> however, beyond leaving things exactly as they are.   
   >   
   > All I'm saying is that an English Parliament or devolution to the regions   
   > (already a dead duck) would be workable. I can't see how your government   
   > within a government, cabinet within a cabinet, departments within   
   > departments, at Westminster would be!   
      
   That is your concept - not mine.   
   I see the future as four devolved countries, each running their own affairs   
   and with its own cabinet in its own parliament and a United Kingdom of a few   
   ministers dealing with such common things as defence.  In this way there   
   would be four UKI places set at the European top table.   
   --   
      
   Robert Peffers,   
   Kelty,   
   Fife,   
   Scotland, (UK).   
   (When replying take pam away from peffers.   
   Scotland).   
      
   >   
   >   
   >>As long as the union is in place then   
   >> you   
   >> > can't turn non-English Westminster MPs into second class MPs. People   
   >> should   
   >> > obtain positions in the UK government based on merit and not on what   
   > part   
   >> of   
   >> > the UK they come from.   
   >>   
   >> That will only be possible if the problem is resolved. The English are in   
   > a   
   >> position now where they are governed in great and little matters by a   
   > party   
   >> which got fewer English votes.   
   >   
   > Which has nothing to do with devolution! Scotland and Wales have already   
   > gon   
   > e to PR in the devolved elections. The next obvious step is for PR in the   
   > Westminster UK elections. The problem is neither of the main parties   
   > particularly want it.   
   >   
   >   
   >   
   > It is possible that they will soon be in a   
   >> situation where they are governed in great matters and small by a party   
   > that   
   >> obtains fewer MP's. The resentment that ensues will not necessarily   
   > express   
   >> itself in reasonable ways. But resentment there will be. And it will be   
   >> increased, not suppressed, when it is characterised as little Englander   
   >> racist shaven-headed chauvinism. Which it will be.   
   >   
   > I think I have a better regard for the average English person than you   
   > seem   
   > to have. The Scots public were faced with a much bigger democratic deficit   
   > than the English currently are, or are ever likely to be because of pure   
   > demographics. The problem was solved by civilised politics. I can't   
   > imagine   
   > why the English would be any less civilised. Besides I am advocating a   
   > referendum for an English parliament. You don't need to convince me that   
   > there is a problem!   
   >   
   >   
   >> > The first part of your post is your opinion and it is of course as   
   >> relevant   
   >> > as anyone elses. However this last paragrpah seems to be based on   
   > complete   
   >> > misconceptions. The ability of the English to decide for themselves has   
   >> not   
   >> > changed one iota from pre-devolution times. Internally, pre-devolution   
   >> > Scotland was largely run by the Scottish Office and the workings of   
   >> > that   
   >> > said office has been transferred, almost lock stock and barrel, to   
   >> Holyrood.   
   >> > That is a directly elected body rather than a body appointed by central   
   >> > government.   
   >>   
   >> The Welsh, however, were mostly lumped in with England, and they managed   
   > to   
   >> extricate themselves to some extent.   
   >   
   > This discussion is mostly really about Scotland though. The Welsh Assembly   
   > is a different animal from Holyrood altogether.   
   >   
   >   
   >   
   >   
   >>   
   >> > This hasn't changed how England itself is governed or how MPs   
   >> > are elected to Westminster. In fact if anything Scottish opinion at UK   
   >> level   
   >> > has been weakened as part of the devolution settlement involves a   
   >> reduction   
   >> > of Scottish MPs. And again the Labour Party still obtained a clear   
   > working   
   >> > majority from English seats alone.   
   >>   
   >> That's why the upset has been muted. And previously, when that situation   
   >> arose, it was accepted because the feeling was that the same rules   
   >> applied   
   >> to everyone (With the exception of Northern Ireland, which was a special   
   >> case). The British government governed everyone, and a local preference   
   >> wasn't held to override the national will. Now the local preference of   
   >> Scotland and Wales will always be implemented, and the local preference   
   >> of   
   >> England is ignored. The local preference of Northern Ireland is to be   
   > sorted   
   >> out Real Soon Now, when they come to some kind of accomodation.   
   >   
   > For a start the idea that everyone was governed the same and the same   
   > rules   
   > applied to everyone is simply not true. The existence of the Scottish   
   > Office   
   > is ample proof of that. All that has happened is that the powers of this   
   > office has now been transferred to a directly elected body. The way that   
   > England is governed hasn't changed. I've already stated that I'm in favour   
   > of an English Parliament hence I am more in line with JNugent than you   
   > are.   
   >   
   > Secondly the voting system does not only affect the English electorate   
   > unfairly. For instance Labour opinion is often almost classed as Scottish   
   > opinion. It isn't! The skewed electoral system gives Labour a huge   
   > majority   
   > of Scottish seats from a minority of the vote.   
   >   
   >   
   >   
   >>   
   >> > The fact that this comes from a lower   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)