XPost: soc.culture.scottish, soc.culture.irish, uk.media.tv.misc   
   From: allan@EASYNET.CO.UK   
      
   "Westprog"  wrote in message   
   news:e4smn1$iq9$1@news.datemas.de...   
   >   
   > "allan connochie"  wrote in message   
   > news:44724424@news.greennet.net...   
   > ...   
   > > All I'm saying is that an English Parliament or devolution to the   
   regions   
   > > (already a dead duck) would be workable. I can't see how your government   
   > > within a government, cabinet within a cabinet, departments within   
   > > departments, at Westminster would be!   
   >   
   > I'm not saying that at all. The English administration would be a totally   
   > seperate arrangement. It would need to be set up independently of the UK   
   > government. But something would either be the responsibility of the   
   national   
   > government, or of the English administration. Whatever matters are   
   currently   
   > handled by the Scottish assembly would be delegated to English   
   departments.   
      
   We're just going to have to disagree on this as IMHO what you are suggesting   
   would just be a complete mess, and it would be nigh on impossible to get   
   that working properly, with serious chances of it being completely   
   unworkable, causing either complete stagnation of domestic English   
   legislation or worse a breakdown of UK government because of domestic   
   English issues. Another alternative to an actual English devolved parliament   
   that would be more workable than your idea, would be for the entire UK to go   
   Federal. Money raised in, for example Scotland, would be spent in that part   
   of the UK and the powers of the said parliament would be greatly increased.   
   Westminster would become an English Parliament on the same basis as   
   Holyrood, and there would be a UK executive ( sitting wherever) either   
   directly elected or somehow selected from the various parliaments for a   
   certain limited number of issues.   
      
      
      
      
      
      
   > As there would be no additional work involved, there should be no reason   
   why   
   > MP's shouldn't deal with it. However, that's an administrative detail. I   
   > suspect that the first consideration for an English parliament would be   
   > getting award-winning architects to submit designs.   
   >   
   > > Scotland and Wales have already gon   
   > > e to PR in the devolved elections. The next obvious step is for PR in   
   the   
   > > Westminster UK elections. The problem is neither of the main parties   
   > > particularly want it.   
   >   
   > Given that the present situation means that the Conservatives need an   
   > estimated 5% lead to get any kind of majority, I'd expect them to rethink   
   > the matter.   
      
   The same was being said of Labour not that long ago! So you could be right   
   but one suspects that when the Tories get back in they would revert to type.   
   I imagine the best chance of some kind of PR would be brokered by the Lib   
   Dems if anyone.   
      
      
      
   >   
   > >  It is possible that they will soon be in a   
   > > > situation where they are governed in great matters and small by a   
   party   
   > > that   
   > > > obtains fewer MP's. The resentment that ensues will not necessarily   
   > > express   
   > > > itself in reasonable ways. But resentment there will be. And it will   
   be   
   > > > increased, not suppressed, when it is characterised as little   
   Englander   
   > > > racist shaven-headed chauvinism. Which it will be.   
   >   
   > > I think I have a better regard for the average English person than you   
   > seem   
   > > to have. The Scots public were faced with a much bigger democratic   
   deficit   
   > > than the English currently are, or are ever likely to be because of pure   
   > > demographics. The problem was solved by civilised politics. I can't   
   > imagine   
   > > why the English would be any less civilised. Besides I am advocating a   
   > > referendum for an English parliament. You don't need to convince me that   
   > > there is a problem!   
   >   
   > The problem is not with Scots, who have no particular wish to run England.   
   > It's with Labour, which is doing very nicely out of the current situation,   
   > where they can rely on Scottish votes to put through English policies.   
      
   I agree that Labour are benefiting from the half cocked system but again you   
   are again perpetuating the myth that it is solely a problem of Labour   
   relying on Scottish votes to push through English legislation. How many   
   times has that actually happened? Once that I can think off..........perhaps   
   twice.....certainly not much more than that? How many Sewel Motions have   
   their been? Over 60 at the last count. Hence there have been far more   
   episodes of Labour using English MPs to push through purely Scottish   
   legislation than vice-versa! Again a referendum on English devolution would   
   perhaps bring the workings of the system to the surface and show all the   
   anomalies and not just the ones that the English Tory press wish to   
   highlight!   
      
      
      
   Blair   
   > was warned that this would cause resentment - but he doesn't care. When   
   > Brown is applying the same policies, possibly without a majority of   
   English   
   > MP's, then things will get a bit warm for him. He will be disliked for   
   being   
   > Scottish, which is unfair - but politics isn't always fair.   
   > ...   
   > > For a start the idea that everyone was governed the same and the same   
   > rules   
   > > applied to everyone is simply not true. The existence of the Scottish   
   > Office   
   > > is ample proof of that. All that has happened is that the powers of this   
   > > office has now been transferred to a directly elected body. The way that   
   > > England is governed hasn't changed. I've already stated that I'm in   
   favour   
   > > of an English Parliament hence I am more in line with JNugent than you   
   > are.   
   >   
   > I want an English Parliament - I just think that the English government   
   > could easily be made up from MP's, rather than creating an additional   
   > electoral tier. A seperate governmental tier is required.   
      
   Again we're going to have to disagree on that.   
      
      
   >   
   > > Secondly the voting system does not only affect the English electorate   
   > > unfairly. For instance Labour opinion is often almost classed as   
   Scottish   
   > > opinion. It isn't! The skewed electoral system gives Labour a huge   
   > majority   
   > > of Scottish seats from a minority of the vote.   
   >   
   > Less of an issue now, I suppose, with Scottish affairs decided on a   
   > different voting basis.   
      
   There has been no change at Westminster level. The first past the post   
   system is still used. Hence when people talk about Scottish opinion and   
   Labour opinion as if they are one and the same thing they are talking   
   nonsense. Labour got a huge majority of seats in Scotland from a minority of   
   the vote. It's also absurd to somehow suggest that Scottish affairs are   
   dealt with only at Holyrood. Many of the most important matters have been   
   reserved by Westminster.   
      
      
      
   Allan   
      
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