XPost: soc.history.war.misc, soc.culture.scottish, alt.religion.   
   hristian.presbyterian   
   XPost: alt.religion.christian.baptist   
   From: allan@EASYNET.CO.UK   
      
   "Raktizer Omheit"  wrote in message   
   news:45526740_1@news.iprimus.com.au...   
   >   
   > "allan connochie"  wrote in message   
   > news:45526772@news.greennet.net...   
   > >   
   > > "Raktizer Omheit"  wrote in message   
   > > news:455110d4_1@news.iprimus.com.au...   
   > >>   
   > >> "allan connochie"  wrote in message   
   > >> Alan, Scotland's last major victory against England at the Battle of   
   > >> Bannockburn in 1314 was followed at LATER dates by a string of English   
   > >> victories were the English longbowmen, along with the Welsh mercenary   
   > >> longbowmen, were a decisive factor against the Scots at the Battles of   
   > >> Dupplin Moor in 1332, Halidon Hill in 1333, St. Neville's Cross in   
   1346,   
   > >> Flodden Field in 1513, were useful at Solway Moss in 1542, and at also   
   at   
   > >> Pinkie Cleugh in 1547.   
   > >   
   > > The longbow was not the important factor that you claim it to be at any   
   of   
   > > these 16thC battles!   
   > >   
   > > Allan   
   > >   
   > >   
   > Alan, that might have been to a certain extent the case at Solway Moss,   
      
   It was more than a certain extent though! There may have been some   
   longbowmen involved, though I'm not sure there were any there at all, but   
   one thing is pretty well known. The rout itself was caused by relatively   
   small numbers of light cavalry in the shape of English Borderers; the   
   terrain the Scots found themselves in; and the complete disorganisation   
   within the Scottish leadership.   
      
      
   but   
   > as far as Flodden Field and Pinkie Cleugh are concerned, I am not so sure.   
      
   Flodden is thought of as the last battle in Britain where the longbow was   
   the principle English weapon. However the significant thing was not how   
   effective it was, but how ineffective it was shown to be in that battle.   
   English accounts of the battle state that few Scots were killed by arrows.   
   The main weapons which did damage at distance were the English artillery   
   which was much lighter and more accurate than the Scottish artillery. The   
   heavy losses the Scots were taking in the artillery exchange made them come   
   down from their position and attack. The continual bombardment of the   
   centre, which was the main royal force, caused immense damage. Once they   
   came within range of the longbows the hail of arrows made little difference   
   to the advance. The weather conditions didn't help the weapon's   
   effectiveness but the main shock to the English was that even when the   
   arrows were on target they had little great effect.   
      
   "The Scots were so surely harnessed with complete harness, German jacks,   
   rivets, splents, pavises and other habiliments, that shot of arrows in   
   regard did them no harm..........from Laing's Trewe Encountre"   
      
   "They were so well appointed......with arms and harness....that few of them   
   were slain with arrows.......Ibid"   
      
   "Finally after 200 years, the Scots had found the answer to the English   
   longbow. The English archers must have been dismayed to see the Scots close   
   the range without their archery haveing any appreciable effect. Flodden was   
   not begun and ended by a storm of English arrows, but would just as the   
   Scots had intended, be decided by close combat, or hand   
   strokes........................Flodden by Niall Barr"   
      
   On the left side of the battle tLord Home's Scottish Borderers and Huntly's   
   Highlanders tore into the English ranks and looked like overcoming them but   
   Dacre's cavalry,English Borderers, saved the day and after stalemate both   
   sides eventually pulled apart. The Scots looked down on the main centre of   
   the army and saw the disaster unfolding. Huntly wanted to attack again but   
   Home refused to budge. Some accused him of treachery but it's quite possible   
   that his forces were incapable of re-entering the fray immediately - or   
   perhaps he realised that Scottish and English Borderers may not slaughter   
   each other needlessly, as it was pretty clear what was happening in the main   
   centre.   
      
   The Scots advance had been hindered by a stream and boggy terrain at the   
   bottom of Branxton Hill and they had lost their disciplined formation. In   
   the close hand to hand fighting the long Scottish pikes turned out to be a   
   complete liability against the English bill and a massacre was taking place.   
      
   The Highlanders of Argyll and Lennox on the other flank were not actively   
   involved and were possibly shocked at what they were witnessing. They had a   
   hail of arrows shot at them and then when attacked by Stanley's billmen most   
   of them, quite unlike Highlanders, simply turned tail and ran. The damage of   
   course had already been done. The Highlanders and Borderers apart, the main   
   royal army in the centre had been well beaten.   
      
   As for Pinkie well yes, there were bowmen there but this was much more a   
   modern battle so bowmen were far more insignificant than the field   
   artillery, naval barrage, as well as the arquebesiers. The Scots cavalry   
   consisted of Scottish Borderers and, as well as outnumbering them 3 to 1,   
   the English cavalry included more professional troops. Like Flodden and   
   Solway Moss, the defeat at Pinkie was not down to the longbow.   
      
      
   Allan   
      
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