XPost: soc.history.war.misc, soc.culture.scottish, alt.religion.   
   hristian.presbyterian   
   XPost: alt.religion.christian.baptist   
   From: cequka@iprimus.com.au   
      
   "allan connochie"  wrote in message   
   news:4555a850@news.greennet.net...   
   >   
   > "Raktizer Omheit"  wrote in message   
   > news:4553be55_1@news.iprimus.com.au...   
   >>   
   >> "allan connochie"  wrote in message   
   >> >> >> "allan connochie"  wrote in message   
   >>> The weather conditions didn't help the weapon's   
   >> > effectiveness but the main shock to the English was that even when the   
   >> > arrows were on target they had little great effect.   
   >> >   
   >> > "The Scots were so surely harnessed with complete harness, German   
   >> > jacks,   
   >> > rivets, splents, pavises and other habiliments, that shot of arrows in   
   >> > regard did them no harm..........from Laing's Trewe Encountre"   
   >> >   
   >> > "They were so well appointed......with arms and harness....that few of   
   >> > them   
   >> > were slain with arrows.......Ibid"   
   >   
   >   
   >   
   >> >   
   >> > "Finally after 200 years, the Scots had found the answer to the English   
   >> > longbow. The English archers must have been dismayed to see the Scots   
   >> > close   
   >> > the range without their archery haveing any appreciable effect. Flodden   
   >> > was   
   >> > not begun and ended by a storm of English arrows, but would just as the   
   >> > Scots had intended, be decided by close combat, or hand   
   >> > strokes........................Flodden by Niall Barr"   
   >   
   >   
   >> Alan, I believe that the reason why the longbow was not all that   
   >> effective   
   >> at the Battle of  Flodden field in 1513 was because the wind was blowing   
   >> against the English, rather than at the Scots. In more favourable   
   >> circumstances for longbow archers, the longbow, with its bodkin point,   
   > could   
   >> easily pierce armour, especially when fired in a straight line rather   
   >> than   
   >> in massed arching volleys, as well as wound a knight in his leg, or bring   
   >> down his horse along with himself.   
   >   
   > The wind and rain did effect the range and accuracy of the longow which of   
   > course was already far inferior to the artillery now on show. However they   
   > were still firing at closer range and the oncoming mass of pikemen must   
   > have   
   > made a massive target. The accounts given at the top are I believe from   
   > the   
   > only detailed contemporary English account of Flodden and clearly seems to   
   > be saying that even when on target the arrows did not have much affect. As   
   > well as the worn protection there was also the wooden pavises which the   
   > front rows carried. The quote from Barr is pretty consistent with most   
   > Scottish historian's thinking, however all this is in the fine detail and   
   > perhaps debateable, but the main point being made was that the longbow   
   > wasn't a decisive factor in the battle, which you seem to now concede.   
   >   
   >   
   > Allan   
   >   
   Allan, I remember reading that at the Battle of Guinegate or the Battle of   
   the Spurs in 1513, fought in the same year when the Scots were defeated by   
   the English at the Battle of Flodden Field, the English longbow archers   
   managed to rout some of the French by firing massed volleys into their   
   flanks, rather than into their front lines. In addition, the English had the   
   help of the Germans led by the Holy Roman Emperor. All this was of course   
   before the German Lutheran Reformation in 1517, the Scottish abandonment of   
   the anti-English "Auld Alliance" with France in 1561 and the ascendancy of   
   the Calvinist Reformation in Scotland, and The Thirty Years War of   
   1618-1648, where Germany became divided into a mainly Catholic southern and   
   western area, and a mainly Lutheran northern and eastern area. I do remember   
   reading that the Nazis in municipal, state, and federal elections held from   
   1929-1933 did manage to get most of their votes from predominantly Lutheran   
   areas of Germany, which is not surprising considering Martin Luther's   
   anti-Jewish pamphlet called "On the Jews and Their Lies," first published in   
   1543 and defended publicly by most German Lutheran pastors, with a few   
   exceptions, until 1945. Martin Luther was angry with those Jews who refused   
   to voluntarily convert to Christianity. Alfred von Hugenberg, leader of the   
   mainly Lutheran layperson's "German National People's Party," did form an   
   anti-communist coalition with the Nazis after the German federal election   
   held on the 5th of March, 1933.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)