XPost: soc.history.war.misc, soc.culture.scottish, alt.religion.   
   hristian.presbyterian   
   XPost: alt.religion.christian.baptist   
   From: cequka@iprimus.com.au   
      
   "The Highlander"  wrote in message   
   news:von9l2d63k18mcc3tu2nhn0ticer4pb0c0@4ax.com...   
   > On Wed, 8 Nov 2006 09:54:30 +1100, "Raktizer Omheit"   
   >  wrote:   
   >   
   >>   
   >>"Nebulous"  wrote in message   
   >>news:w-KdnXTGd474pc3YnZ2dnUVZ8tadnZ2d@pipex.net...   
   >>>   
   >>> "Raktizer Omheit"  wrote in message   
   >>> news:454fc810_1@news.iprimus.com.au...   
   >>>>   
   >>>> "Don Phillipson"  wrote in message   
   >>>> news:eio3oo$ral$1@theodyn.ncf.ca...   
   >>>>> "Raktizer Omheit"  wrote in message   
   >>>>> news:454ec049_1@news.iprimus.com.au...   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>> The Scottish aristocracy was so arrogant and snobbish that they   
   >>>>>> refused   
   >>>>>> to   
   >>>>>> grant to their middling class or middle class peasantry the right to   
   >>>>>> use   
   >>>>>> longbows on a large scale when fighting in major battles against   
   >>>>>> English   
   >>>>>> longbow archers. This led to disastrous and humiliating defeats for   
   >>>>>> the   
   >>>>>> Scottish armies against English armies at the Battles of Dupplin Moor   
   >>>>>> in   
   >>>>>> 1332, Halidon Hill in 1333, St. Neville's Cross in 1346, Flodden   
   >>>>>> Field   
   >>>>>> in   
   >>>>>> 1513, Solway Moss in 1542, and Pinkie Cleugh in 1547.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> Why should anyone think bowmen on either side were "middling   
   >>>>> class or middle class peasantry" in 14th-16th century wars?   
   >>>>>   
   >>>> Don, many historians whom I have read have described the English   
   >>>> longbow   
   >>>> archer as belonging usually to the yeoman class, which in its day   
   >>>> formed   
   >>>> a well-to-do class of farmers who were neither rich nor poor.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> A principal difference between Scotland and England before   
   >>>>> recent times was the weakness of the Scottish class system,   
   >>>>> mainly the equality of everyone (except the 5 per cent wealthiest)   
   >>>>> in schools, churches, law courts etc.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>> Don, if that's the case, then why did the English longbowmen, with the   
   >>>> help of knights and pikemen, defeat the Scots so many times in battle?   
   >>>> Why did the Scots fail to use the longbow to the extent that the   
   >>>> English   
   >>>> did?   
   >>>   
   >>> The longbow was a relatively expensive weapon which took a long time to   
   >>> learn. You could teach the basic pike moves in half an hour.   
   >>>   
   >>> Neb   
   >>>   
   >>True Nebulous, but in that case the French, with a larger population and a   
   >>larger tax revenue base, should have adopted the longbow on a larger   
   >>scale.   
   >>And the Welsh, who were more impoverished than the Scots, used the longbow   
   >>extensively, as the English were themselves to do so later on.   
   >>   
   >   
   > I think that was the start of the sea change in weaponry and   
   > protection against it in Europe.   
   >   
   > Knights were the tanks of their time and the investment in armour for   
   > man and horse must have cost a pretty penny.  Agincourt demonstrated   
   > the advantages of the longbow, where the French knights were   
   > slaughtered by arrows, but still the surviviors refused to lay their   
   > expensive armour aside and seek new solutions.   
   >   
   > Actually, the Romans had probably the best tactics and weaponry seen   
   > for over a thousand years. The only difference between the Romans and   
   > the Highlanders 1700 years later was that the Romans marched into   
   > battle while the Highlanders ran at the enemy.   
   >   
   > The Highlander   
   >   
   > Faodaidh nach ionann na beachdan anns   
   > an post seo agus beachdan a' Ghàidheil.   
   > The views expressed in this post are   
   > not necessarily those of The Highlander.   
   >   
   Highlander, the Romans did inflict a nasty defeat on the Highland   
   Picts-Basques-and Celt Scots ( the result of intermingling among successive   
   waves of invaders of the British Isles prior to the Roman occupation ) at   
   the Battle of Mons Graupius on what is now Scottish soil in 85 A.D., and   
   they also had a great victory in 16 A.D. over the Germans at the Battle of   
   the Weser River, also known as the Battle of Idistaviso, led by the Roman   
   General Germanicus Caesar.   
      
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