XPost: soc.history.war.misc, soc.culture.scottish, alt.religion.   
   hristian.presbyterian   
   XPost: alt.religion.christian.baptist   
   From: cequka@iprimus.com.au   
      
   "William Black"  wrote in message   
   news:ej9g84$agu$1@news.freedom2surf.net...   
   >   
   > "Raktizer Omheit"  wrote in message   
   > news:4557ae57_1@news.iprimus.com.au...   
   >>   
   >> "William Black"  wrote in message   
   >> news:ej6t1s$oug$1@news.freedom2surf.net...   
   >   
   >>>>> The armour was mostly arrowproof by that time.   
   >>>> William, that is what happens when you charge into a ploughed field   
   >>>   
   >>> How do you k now it was a ploughed field?   
   >   
   >>> Because I read about it somewhere, i.e. an account written by one of the   
   >>> English soldiers there?   
   >   
   > There are no soldier's accounts of Agincourt.   
   >   
   > Where did you read it?   
   In an introduction or footnote written by a modern historian to the account   
   of the battle written by the royal chaplain of King Henry V who was at the   
   actual battle site. Besides, how else could the French knights have sunk   
   knee deep into the mud at Agincourt unless it was ploughed, and unless   
   recent heavy rains had preceeded the beginning of the battle. The valley   
   which they attacked in was quite narrow, with a brook running through it,   
   and was hemmed in on three sides by forested hillocks back in 1415.   
   >   
   >>>   
   >>>> i.e. after the English and Welsh longbow archers had used up all their   
   >>>> arrows.   
   >>>   
   >>> 1.  What Welsh archers?   
   >   
   >>> The ones who were actually there, William, face to face with their   
   >>> enemy, and with none of the advantages of today's technology. i.e. the   
   >>> genuinely brave.   
   >   
   > There is no evidence for large numbers of Welsh archers at Agincourt.   
   But there were some, even if not in large numbers. Besides, the English   
   themselves by this stage had learned long ago the value of longbow archery   
   practice.   
   >   
   >>> 2.  How do you know they had no arrows left?   
   >   
   >   
   >>> And how do you know otherwhise William?   
   >   
   > I don't.   
   >   
   > You seem to.   
   >   
   > How do you know?   
   From a modern historian, can't remember exactly where.   
   >   
   > Were you there? Besides, if they   
   >>> still had the arrows left, they would still be using them, rather than   
   >>> needlessly risking themselves in hand-to-hand combat.   
   >   
   > When did the archers enter hand-to-hand combat at Agincourt?   
   After they had used up their arrows. They carried swords and hatchets with   
   them, and they also had alongside them dismounted men-at-arms with swords,   
   as well as footsoldiers armed with billhooks.   
   >   
   >>> Of course, longbow arrows   
   >>>> fired volley after volley into the air in large swarms in an arching   
   >>>> trajectory, tipped with bodkin points, could still wreak havoc on plate   
   >>>> armour, and of course on the knight's horses.   
   >>>   
   >>> 1.  We do know the French attacked on foot.   
   >   
   >>> William, that would have made them all the more easier to shoot down   
   >>> with, especially if they were marching through mud.   
   >   
   > I know.  The fact remains that the French attacked on foot,  mainly   
   > because their horses were very vulnerable to arrows...   
   King Henry V nonetheless did order his archers to set up wooden stakes in   
   front of them in case there was a cavalry charge.   
   >   
   >>> 2.  We do not know the archers used bodkin points,  we assume they did.   
   >>> They may well have had a mixture and used 'type 16' as well.   
   >   
   >>> William, they would have used any weapon available which would have   
   >>> given them a greater chance at meeting their self-preservation instinct.   
   >   
   > You stated,  quite categorically,  that they used bodkin points.  I asked   
   > for proof of this.   
   >   
   > Do you have any proof?   
    William, you should become a lawyer! I do know that as French armour became   
   designed to deflect arrows, the English developed specially tipped arrow   
   points in order to shear through it, otherwhise they would have not bothered   
   to use them at Agincourt in 1415, the many battles after Agincourt fought in   
   France between the English and French until 1453, or at the Battle of   
   Guinegate in 1513 against the French cavalry, when they fired a massed   
   volley of longbows into their flanks, and managed to rout the French with   
   the assistance of the German troops led by the Holy Roman Emperor. In the   
   same year that the Battle of Guinegate was fought, i.e. in 1513, the English   
   longbow archers, with the help of other parts of their army, managed to   
   score a crushing victory over the Scots at the Battle of Flodden Field.   
   >   
   > --   
   > William Black   
   >   
   >   
   > I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.   
   > Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland   
   > I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate   
   > All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach   
   > Time for tea.   
   >   
   >   
   >   
   >   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)