XPost: soc.culture.scottish, soc.culture.irish, ie.general   
   From: micheil@shaw.ca   
      
   On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 10:22:57 GMT, Ciaran  wrote:   
      
   >The Highlander wrote:   
   >> On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 02:06:48 GMT, Ciaran  wrote:   
   >>   
   >>> allan connochie wrote:   
   >>>> "Ciaran"  wrote in message   
   >>>> news:455E9F8B.9020903@ciaran.com...   
   >>>>> allan connochie wrote:   
   >>>>>> "Ciaran"  wrote in message   
   >>>>>> news:s9h6h.64485$rP1.8080@news-server.bigpond.net.au...   
   >>>>>>> Some form of Q-Celtic Gaelic may have been used by the Picts as on the   
   >>>>>>> inscription in the Gaelic Ogham alphabet cited below. Note that   
   >>>>>>> "mac"/"mic" means "son" in both Scottish Gaelic (Gaidhlig) and Irish   
   >>>>>>> Gaelic (Gaeilge) - if you pronounce the Pictish incription "meqq" it   
   >>>>>>> sounds much closer to the Gaelic version than to the P-Celtic Brythonic   
   >>>>>>> version "mab"/"map" which means "son" in both Welsh (Cymraeg) and   
   >>>> Breton   
   >>>>>>> (Brezhoneg).   
   >>>>>> This is nothing new though. It is generally accepted that the 'meqq'   
   >>>> could   
   >>>>>> mean son of. It could be Gaelic - which would be no surprise as the   
   >>>> Picts   
   >>>>>> became Gaelicised, at first probably just influenced by, then probably   
   >>>>>> bi-lingual, then Gaelic speakers. However that is not the same as the   
   >>>>>> Pictish language itself being Gaelic. Likewise 'meqq' could simply be   
   >>>> their   
   >>>>>> way of putting 'map' to print. It is also possible that 'meqq' has   
   >>>> nothing   
   >>>>>> to do with son of - I'd doubt that myself by the fact is we don't know.   
   >>>>>> Likewise some have suggested that the inscriptions don't actually mean   
   >>>>>> anything - though again I'd doubt that.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> What is true though is that the suggestion that 'meqq' could be the   
   >>>> original   
   >>>>>> Pictish 'map' Gaelicised has been public knowledge ever since people   
   >>>> started   
   >>>>>> looking at the inscriptions. Little things like that are what pushed   
   >>>> some   
   >>>>>> scholars in the 19thC to suggest that Pictish may have been Q-Celtic.   
   >>>>>> However these views have ben roundly debunked for a century or so and   
   >>>>>> opinion amongst those who study the subject is just about unanimous. It   
   >>>> is   
   >>>>>> generally accepted that the Pictish language was P-Celtic.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> Allan   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>> Sorry, No, VERY UNLIKELY - the Ogham letter Ceirt (5 horizontal strokes   
   >>>>> to the left of the line) which is transliterated as "q" represents a   
   >>>>> hard "K" sound as in "Mack". There are other Ogham letters for "b/p"   
   >>>>> which they would have used instead. "MAQ" is also used extensively on   
   >>>>> definite Gaelic Ogham inscriptions everywhere Ogham is found.   
   >>>> What is very unlikely? The whole post? I've given several possible reasons   
   >>>> which have been put forward. It is all by the by anyway. Even if it is a   
   >>>> representation of Mac actually in Gaelic, which I said would be no   
   surprise,   
   >>>> it makes no difference to the argument. No-one is denying that Gaelic   
   didn't   
   >>>> spread into Pictland, influence Pictish and eventually replace it - what   
   is   
   >>>> being said is that the Pictish language itself was P-Celtic.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> I take it your point  is about the 'meqq' possibly being the Pictish   
   attempt   
   >>>> at puting 'map' to print? This is not my idea. I was simply giving one of   
   >>>> the possible reasons. Talking about the said subject Elizabeth Sutherland   
   in   
   >>>> her book "In Search of the Picts" quotes Niall Robertson............."when   
   >>>> the Picts wrote their Ogam inscriptions in P-Celtic they might have used   
   the   
   >>>> 'fid' for 'q' to represent 'p', so that inscriptions using MEQQ or MAQQ   
   >>>> would have been read as MAP or MAPP"   
   >>>>   
   >>>> She then goes on to explain "Ogam inscriptions in the other P-Celtic areas   
   >>>> such as Wales and the old district of Dumnonia used the 'cert' for 'q' if   
   >>>> they used it at all, but these inscriptions are written in Irish and don't   
   >>>> attempt to represent local language as the Pictish Ogams seem to do"   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Again I have no wish to personally put forward this particular theory. It   
   >>>> was just one of the various theories around.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Sutherland by the way was responsible for establishing the museum at Groam   
   >>>> House in Rosemarkie as a Pictish centre. I think she knows a thing or two   
   >>>> about the Picts as she has dedicated a good part of her life to studying   
   >>>> them. She doesn't herself come to any conclusion about the MEQQ question,   
   >>>> which is possibly sensible, as it couldn't be proved one way or the other.   
   >>>> Whatever the answer is though it doesn't itself affect the overall   
   >>>> acceptance of Pictish being P-Celtic and she says "the opinion generally   
   >>>> held by Celtic scholars from the beginning of the 20thC is that Picts   
   spoke   
   >>>> a P-Celtic language"   
   >>>>   
   >>>> I could of course quote from stacks of volumes written by respected   
   >>>> historians but I thought this one would do to make a point. You suggested   
   >>>> that it wasn't you who has an agenda here, rather it is myself and the   
   >>>> entire Scottish community of historians who have the bias. These are two   
   >>>> quotes from William Ferguson's "The Identity of the Scottish Nation"   
   >>>>   
   >>>> "Indeed about the one fact that modern scholarship has established with   
   >>>> certainty is that the Picts were P-Celts"   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Now according to you scholars like Ferguson are pushing this idea to   
   forward   
   >>>> their own agendas. The only problem is he makes repeated statements   
   >>>> throughout the book like this   
   >>>>   
   >>>> "It was the Scots of Dalriada, an Irish tribe who settled in Argyll in the   
   >>>> sixth century AD and gradually extended their sway over most of Scotland   
   >>>> north of the Forth, who gave their name to the country; and more than   
   their   
   >>>> name, for they contributed to and, to a large extent, shaped the   
   subsequent   
   >>>> Kingdom of Scotland. For many centuries, and those the most formative,   
   their   
   >>>> language, Gaelic, was the lingua scotica of the regnum scotica"   
   >>>>   
   >>>> In other words your suggestion that people claim the Picts were P-Celts in   
   >>>> order to knock Gaelic is utter codswallop. The Gaelic language is   
   important   
   >>>> enough that you don't need to reshape history in order to make it more so.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Allan   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>> Tha gu math !!! Ailean, tapadh leibh :-)   
   >>>   
   >>> Excellent !!! Allan, thanks :-)   
   >>   
   >> Please forgive me for nitpicking, but what you wrote directly above,   
   >> "Tha gu math" translates as "is well", a common response to "Ciamar a   
   >> tha thu? - How are you?"   
   >>   
   >> You should say "sgoinneil", a word originally meaning careful,   
   >> needful, attentive, pleasing, but now commonly used to say "excellent"   
   >> .   
   >> You can even combine it with "gasta" (formerly spelled "gasda") as in   
   >>   
      
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