XPost: soc.culture.irish, ie.general, soc.culture.scottish   
   From: Féach@d.óir   
      
   Scríobh david.devnull@gmail.com:   
   >   
   >> Her grasp of gaelic is pretty negliable as she never paid attention in   
   >> class. What I do find is some places sound simular in irish as they do   
   >> in english, but what's with places like wicklow? the gaelic for that is   
   >> totally different!   
   >   
   >The names that are similar in english are more down to the english   
   >hearing the Irish name and stuffing it up than there is anything wrong   
   >with the irish names.   
   >   
   >For example Phoenix park in Irish is Park Fionn Uisce or the park of   
   >the fair water (or something).  Fionn Uisce?  Sure that's to hard,   
   >we'll just call it phoenix.  Who cares that it means something else   
   >entirely.   
   >   
   >On the other hand, the irish for Blackrock is Carraig Dubh which   
   >literally means em ... black rock ...   
      
   The vast majority of placenames in Ireland are Irish. They are   
   generally recorded in English as transliterations, to the extent that   
   most Irish people can make a stab in the dark at what many of the   
   familiar elements are: Bally:Baile, Killy:Cill, Kyle:Coill and so on.   
      
   Occasionally, the English cartographers misidentifed what they were   
   looking at, and the result is an English transliteration of the wrong   
   name. This is why you get places like An Clochan Liath in Co Donegal,   
   which is rendered in English as Dungloe. Apparently the English name   
   comes from Dun gCloiche, a stone fort about 8km away.   
      
   Átha Cliath/Dubh Linn is an interesting case study. Dubh Linn was a   
   dark pool where the rivers Poddle and Liffey mixed, near Christchurch   
   and Dublin Castle. Átha Cliath was a separate settlement, a bit   
   further upriver near Islandbridge. Over time, the settlements merged   
   as the city grew, but the name of the combined city differed in each   
   language, reflecting the different ethnic backgrounds of the two   
   original settlements.   
      
   Next on the list are places named by various invaders. There aren't   
   that many of them, and the names are usually pretty straightforward.   
   Some, like Leixlip, are Scandinavian. Others, like Newbridge or   
   Hospital,  are English. For the most part, the Irish names of these   
   places are translations of the English names (Droichead Nua, Ospideal   
   etc). Occasionally, an older Irish name still survives. Westport in Co   
   Mayo is known as Cathair na Mart in Irish, for example, and Wicklow is   
   still Cill Mhantáin.   
      
   I have a theory that whether the Irish version of an English placename   
   is a translation or an older Irish form correlates to how long the   
   Irish language survived in an area. Unless there are still Irish   
   speakers in the area, the older names are eventually forgotten.   
      
   In some cases, the new English name is transliterated into Irish, even   
   though we still know what the older Irish name was. Mountcharles in Co   
   Donegal is rendered on signposts as Moin Séarlas, but used to be   
   Tamhnach an tSalainn.   
      
   A few placenames were changed back to older forms following   
   independence. Maryborough became Port Laoise, Bagenalstown became   
   Muine Bheag. Some of the changes took, some were less successful.   
      
   I suspect over 99% of placenames in Ireland fall into the first   
   category, Irish original and English transliteration, and there is no   
   reason why anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of Irish shouldn't be   
   able to figure them out.   
      
   I've always thought it would be interesting and educational to have   
   more names on town signs. Not simply Irish and English transliteration   
   or whatever, but the translations too. From the examples above for   
   instance, you'd get Salthill, Abbatoir City, Salmon Leap, Mantan's   
   Church, Greystones, Wattlefort and Blackpool.   
      
   Anyway, I'm all for the survival of Irish placenames in all their   
   varieties, whether the original Irish, translations, transliterations,   
   or even the occasional bit of fossilised Scandinavian or Latin.   
   Anything but Suburban Developer Names. If I see one more Brookside or   
   Glebe Heights or Wisteria Lane...   
      
   --   
   'Donegal:  Up Here It's Different'   
   © Féachadóir   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)