XPost: soc.history.war.misc, soc.culture.scottish, alt.religion.   
   hristian.presbyterian   
   XPost: alt.religion.christian.baptist   
   From: walker@btinternet.com   
      
   Some historians often ignore facts. The question of whether history is an   
   art or science has been debated for a long time now. History as a science   
   restricts the term Puritan (a) to a denomination of Kathars in Northern   
   Italy (b)Calvinist members of the Church of England who wanted to "purify"   
   the Anglican Church of its bishops. History as an art includes whoever the   
   historian wishes to describe as being Puritan as being Puritan, including   
   the Pope if it is so desired.   
   "Raktizer Omheit"  wrote in message   
   news:4553c0af_1@news.iprimus.com.au...   
   >   
   > "walker"  wrote in message   
   > news:BcmdnQEsj7_o0M7YnZ2dnUVZ8tKdnZ2d@bt.com...   
   >> The English Puritans were Episcopalian. Puritan means one who wants to   
   >> purify. The Puritans wanted to purify the Church of England of its   
   >> bishops, which could only be done inside the C of E. The Congregationists   
   >> and Baptist definitely were NOT Puritans. Please learn you English   
   >> Ecclesiastic history before spouting nonesense.   
   > Walker, in that case, there are also far more historians out there who   
   > would also spout so-called "nonsens" according to your criteria. Glad to   
   > see that you do not share this with them!   
   >> "Raktizer Omheit"  wrote in message   
   >> news:454ec049_1@news.iprimus.com.au...   
   >>> The Scottish aristocracy was so arrogant and snobbish that they refused   
   >>> to grant to their middling class or middle class peasantry the right to   
   >>> use longbows on a large scale when fighting in major battles against   
   >>> English longbow archers. This led to disastrous and humiliating defeats   
   >>> for the Scottish armies against English armies at the Battles of Dupplin   
   >>> Moor in 1332, Halidon Hill in 1333, St. Neville's Cross in 1346, Flodden   
   >>> Field in 1513, Solway Moss in 1542, and Pinkie Cleugh in 1547. The   
   >>> longbow had a much better rate of fire, range, accuracy, and penetrating   
   >>> power than the crossbow. Although the Welsh also used the longbow   
   >>> extensively, the Anglo-Norman Welsh Marcher or frontier counts and   
   >>> barons learned from the Welsh, employing Welsh mercenaries and English   
   >>> yeoman footsoldiers and light horsemen trained in the use of the   
   >>> longbow, as well as in the use of the pike, billhook, halberd, hatchet,   
   >>> and sword. The French aristocrats, like their Scottish counterparts,   
   >>> also refused to arm their peasantry with the longbow, fearing that they   
   >>> could turn this powerful weapon against them, as the English yeoman   
   >>> archers were to do on two occasions against their land lords, during the   
   >>> Wat Tyler Revolt of 1381, and in Jack Cade's rebellion of 1450, although   
   >>> both revolts were crushed by the English knights with the help of loyal   
   >>> yeomen archers. On their own, and without the support of knights and   
   >>> pikemen as a covering and counterattacking force, English yeomen archers   
   >>> could not win battles, even if they could exact a heavy toll on a   
   >>> frontal attacking cavalry, and on a frontal infantry assault.   
   >>>   
   >>> The Scottish were again defeated heavily on four occasions during the   
   >>> English Civil Wars of the 1640's and 1650's, that is, at the Battles of   
   >>> Preston in 1648, Dunbar in 1650, Inverkeithing in 1651, and Worcester in   
   >>> 1651. Oliver Cromwell's disciplined, well trained, well armed, well   
   >>> paid, and highly motivated Puritan Army known as the Roundheads and the   
   >>> Ironsides were more than a match for the English Anglican Royalists and   
   >>> their Scottish Presbyterian allies. The English Puritans were mostly   
   >>> Congregationalists and Baptists. The Scottish Presbyterians had   
   >>> originally been allied with the English Puritans when the English Civil   
   >>> War began in 1641, but by 1648 they turned traitor and allied with the   
   >>> English Royalists or Cavaliers when the Puritans refused to impose   
   >>> Presbyterianism on England as the official state religion, as it was in   
   >>> Scotland, and by Cromwell's desire to grant religious toleration for the   
   >>> Scottish Congregationalists and Baptists. Cromwell himself, despite his   
   >>> religious radicalism, was in many ways conservative and realistic in   
   >>> socio-economic policies, as witnessed by his refusal to give in to the   
   >>> Communist demands of Gerard Winstanley's "Diggers" or "True Levellers,"   
   >>> and also by his refusal to allow the "Social Democratic" platform of   
   >>> John Lilburne's "Levellers" to succeed. With the dismal economic record   
   >>> of the late Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact as an example, Cromwell did   
   >>> England a favour by refusing to allow Winstanley and Lilburne to   
   >>> succeed, much as Napoleon Bonaparte was to later do with the French   
   >>> Enrages led by Nicholas Noel-Gracchus Babeuf, although Martin Luther was   
   >>> rather excessive and cruel in his urging the German knightly landlords   
   >>> in crushing the German Peasant Revolt of 1525. Cromwell did not support   
   >>> the dissolution of the English House of Lords, and he also maintained a   
   >>> high property qualification for the eligibility to vote in House of   
   >>> Commons elections, some 200 pounds per annum worth of property to be   
   >>> owned by an adult male, a high sum of money for the 1650's. Not until   
   >>> 1911 were the English House of Commons members paid by tax-payer funded   
   >>> salaries, meaning that most of its members until then were obliged to be   
   >>> men of wealthy status in order to sit as unpaid legislators. Cromwell   
   >>> was probably in the main sincere when he said that the reason why he   
   >>> wished to allow the Jews to legally settle in England was in order to   
   >>> encourage their conversion to Christianity, and he quoted St. Paul's   
   >>> Epistle to the Romans 10 : 14 - 15 in support of this. The English   
   >>> Presbyterian William Prynne was opposed to this Jewish immigration   
   >>> policy, and Martin Luther himself had violently denounced the Jews in   
   >>> his 1543 published pamphlet called "On the Jews and Their Lies," after   
   >>> his hopes for the large-scale, voluntary conversion of the Jews to   
   >>> Lutheran Christianity did not happen. The Dutch Reformed Calvinist or   
   >>> Presbyterian theologian Franciscus Gomarus also was strongly opposed to   
   >>> those Jews who refused to convert to Calvinist Christianity voluntarily,   
   >>> although his proposals against them were somewhat less harsh than those   
   >>> of Martin Luther's.   
   >>>   
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