XPost: soc.culture.welsh, soc.culture.cornish, soc.culture.irish
XPost: soc.culture.scottish
From: micheil@shaw.ca
On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 00:37:17 +0100, "Robert Peffers."
wrote:
>
>"allan connochie" wrote in message
>news:46c5c0c7@news.greennet.net...
>>
>> "Westprog" wrote in message
>> news:fa1qu8$fv2$1@news.datemas.de...
>>>
>>> "Alan Smaill" wrote in message
>>> news:fwe8x8bpkv3.fsf@collins.inf.ed.ac.uk...
>>>> Féachadóir writes:
>>> ...
>>>> >>I think the idea that there are two separate things, one of which is
>>>> >>the
>>>> >>language "Lowland Scots", and the other English spoken with an accent,
>>>> >>doesn't really bear close examination. There's a spectrum. There are
>>> plenty
>>>> >>of sub-dialects as well.
>>>
>>>> > Usenetters rush in, where linguists fear to tread.
>>>
>>>> > Defining the difference between language and dialect is notoriously
>>>> > difficult.
>>>
>>>> Indeed.
>>>
>>>> For the curious, here's what is said in the CEEL:
>>>
>>>> " The identity of English in Scotland has become much more than
>>>> a distinctive regional accent and the occasional habitual feature
>>>> of grammar and vocabulary. It reflects an institutionalized social
>>>> structure, at its most noticeable in the realms of law, local
>>> government,
>>>> religion and education, and raises problems of intelligibility
>>>> that have no parallel elsewhere in Britain. However, despite
>>>> these national underpinnings, and the extensive language loyalty,
>>>> Scots so far has not been able to make inroads into the use of
>>>> Standard
>>>> English as the language of power and public prestige, and it has no
>>>> official existence. Outside certain specialized publications, its
>>>> public
>>>> use tends to be restricted to literature and folklore, to a few
>>> programmes
>>>> on radio and television about local issues, and to jocular contexts,
>>> such
>>>> as cartoons and comic strips. At the same time there have been major
>>>> publications, such as the translation of the New Testament into Scots.
>>>> The situation, in short, is complex and unclear. However, even those
>>>> scholars who debated whether to call Scots a language or a dialect end
>>> up
>>>> by recognizing its special status -- for they are faced with no such
>>>> dilemma in considering the other regional varieties of English in
>>> Britain. "
>>>
>>> There are two aspects to the language - pronunciation and vocabulary.
>>
>> You forget grammar!
>>
>>> If a
>>> word is pronounced differently in "standard English" and Scots, then it
>>> isn't necessary for it to be written differently. English isn't spelled
>>> phonetically, so a written sentence might be considered as being Scots,
>>> Ulster-Scots or English simply depending on who is reading it. Vocabulary
>>> is
>>> a different matter.
>>>
>>> I can see why it is necessary for Burns' poetry, or Trainspotting, to be
>>> transcribed phonetically. I don't see the same as being necessary for the
>>> bus timetable. Sometimes the precise rhythms of the language are
>>> important,
>>> sometimes they aren't.
>>
>> Most written Scots isn't written phonetically though. One well known poet
>> who does that is Tom Leonard. However though there is no single written
>> standard as such there is a spelling tradition, which in itself is less
>> idiosyncratic than standard English, going back through the centuries
>> which most writers more or less work with.
>>
>>
>> Allan
>>
>What do you make of this -
>
>"It is staute and ordanit throw all the realme that al barronis and
>frehaldaris that ar of substance put thair eldest sonnis and airis to the
>sculis fra thai be aucht or nyne yeiris of age...
>And quhat baroune or frehalder of substance that haldis nocht his sone at
>the sculis as said is haifand na lauchfull essoyne bot failyeis heirin fra
>knawledge may be gottin thairof he sall pay to the king the soume of xx
>pounds."
>
>(1496 Scuilin Act)?
>
>This Act was the World's first Education Act, since Ancient Sparta, and a
>very long time efore our cross-Border cousins had one. We also had five
>Uiversities when England had but two. This would indicate that Scotland's
>language was rather better taught in those days. What, also, does anyone
>who doubts that Scots is a different laguage male of the letter, "Yocht",
>written rather like, "z", but with a long tail. There are Scots words that
>use this letter that is not in the English alphabet.
>
> This Yocht letter is what makes, (to English ears), the strange
>pronuciation of the name, "Menzies", and was once also used in, "Mackenzie".
>It is still there in such as ,"Gaberlunzie" "Capercailzie", "tailzie" and,
>"Zetland".
>
>There are several more in the Scots dictionary.
>
>For ammusement, and to illustrate the pronunciation, see this -
>
>A canty wee lassie cried Menzies
>Speirt, "Dae ye ken whit this thenzies?"
>Her Maw, wi a gasp,
>Reponed, "It's a wasp!"
>An ye'r haudin the end whaur the stenzies
Tha's very clever! I've never read or heard that before.
>
>Here is a verse from Roert Fergusson - just for example -
>
>Auld Reekie! thoo're the cantie hole,
>A bield for mony cauldrif sauls,
>Thare snugly at thine ingle lolls,
>Baith wairm an couth;
>While roond thay gar the bicker rolls
>Tae weet thair mooths.
>
>Anda traditional quote -
>
>A Maid Gaed Tae The Mill
>
>A maid gaed tae the mill by nicht / hey, hey sae wanton
>A maid gaed tae the mill by nicht / hey, hey sae wanton she
>She swuire by aw the stars sae bricht
>That she wad git her corn grund / she wad git her corn grund
>Mill an mouter free
>
>Than ooten cam the miller's lad
>He swuire he'd dae the best he can
>For tae git her corn grund
>
>He pit his airms aboot her neck
>He laid her doun upon a seck
>An thare she gat her corn grund
>
>Whan three lang months wis past an gane
>this lassie she grew pale an wan
>for gittin her corn grund
>
>Whan nine lang months wis past an gane
>this lassie haed a braw young son
>For gittin aw her corn grund
>
>Her mither baud her cast it oot
>It wis the miller's stourie cloot
>For gittin her corn grund
>
>Her faither baud her keep it in
>It wis the chief o aw her kin
>For gittin aw her corn grund
>
>Whan ither maids gaed oot tae play
>She grat an saucht an wadna say
>acause she gat he corn grund
>
Hey Westprog - get your teeth into this, which of course, according to
you, is the same as pure English. This exactly how my grandfather
spoke; apparently, like you, under the impression that he was speaking
the purest English.
Mang Howes an Knowes
For aa that the sun, hoisin itsel i the lift owreheed, thraetent an
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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)
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