XPost: soc.culture.welsh, soc.culture.cornish, soc.culture.irish
XPost: soc.culture.scottish
From: micheil@shaw.ca
On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 23:15:28 GMT, "allan connochie"
wrote:
>
>"Chess One" wrote in message
>news:1PHxi.1276$Wr3.525@trndny03...
>>
>> "allan connochie" wrote in message
>> news:GYcxi.18254$ph7.8962@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...
>>>
>>> "Chess One" wrote in message
>>> news:_QYwi.712$1e.196@trndny06...
>>>>
>>>> "The Highlander" wrote in message
>>>> news:48q7c3hb12ilm8mm3i9n9ku6lijoagomt6@4ax.com...
>>>>> You are aware that Scots and English are sister languages derived from
>>>>> Old Northumbrian?
>>>>
>>>> No, I was not aware of that. Though certainly Mercian influenced the
>>>> borders.
>>>
>>> That would be the borders of England and Wales though!
>>
>> Yes it would, too.
>
>
>So when communicating with Scots, as you are here, it makes sense to
>stipulate that you man the English-Welsh borders when you say 'Borders' as
>virtually every Scot would immediately think you were talking about the
>Scottish Borders.
>
>
>>hough it would include Liverpool, and its river, perhaps the most important
>>port in the world until 1900. The need to compass the Mercian-cum-Irish
>>combination for anyone conducting trade was a necessity, and thus it spread
>>from Liverpool to the Clyde.
>>
>>> Scots is a descendent of Northumbrian as are (as Highlander pointed out)
>>
>> ROFL! 'Highlander' is a lowlander, and has lowlander orientations. And
>> there is no such language as 'Scots', any more than Geordie is a language.
>> It is a dialect form of speech, much influenced by all sorts of things,
>> [see above] and from time to time, more this than that. But language? Not!
>
>Well quite frankly your opinion matters not a jot especially as you have
>already shown an, at worst disregard, at best ignorance of, Scottish
>culture. Historically it was for a long period the principal national
>language of the Scottish kingdom. Though not the only one! It had been
>suppressed for a century or so but is again officially recognised by the
>Scottish Educational Establishment, the Scottish Executive, the UK
>government and the EU. The fact that someone is spouting off on a newsgroup
>is hardly going to change things. As for Highlander well he is from Skye but
>has close links to the Borders also. It is surely a good thing to appreciate
>all of Scotland's varied cultures rathing than fixing on one aspect only?
>
>
>>> some of the more northerly dialects of English. Northumbrian at one time
>>> was possibly reasonably standard from the Forth down to the Humber.
>>> Modern Standard English itself is descended from more southerly dialects
>>> than Northumbrian.
>>
>> Yes. This in academe is called a 'normative' understanding of the place
>> West Saxon occupies in the evolution of modern English. 'Standard English'
>> is some hypothetical form actually spoken nowhere, except on the BBC circa
>> 1974.
>>
>>> I can't see how Mercian itself could have been much of an influence, if
>>> any at all, in the Borders. The standard thinking is that the original
>>> Northumbrian of the north was greatly influencd by the later
>>> Anglo-Danish.
>>
>> On the upper East coast, certainly, what was spoken in the Danelaw was
>> necessary to understand in order to have business with it. Concurrance of
>> words in this Danish form and with Englisc, is slight, until about the
>> year 1000, when perfunctory if uncertain exchanges could be had on simple
>> subjects - like buying a horse.
>
> I've already said that the Anglo-Danish came into the picture after the
>Norman invasion as far as Scotland is concerned.
>
>
>
>>
>>> The Danelaw never reached as far as Scotland but there was at least some
>>> movement of displaced peoples northwards (possibly just a small number of
>>> important people) post Norman invasion and then more movements of
>>> northern English and Flemish merchants etc into the emerging burghs.
>>
>> Okay, and true, but these Flemish influences were much later, and result
>> of beer brewing which changed the entire east coast economy to a
>> hops-based one, and away from ale. [You will have read that good-woman
>> Dorothy Hatley] This was, circa 1400 to 1550. Henry VIII and his latter
>> Protestant sympathies ushered it into the Island in larger force, and for
>> which we have to thank for our most commonly used swear terms ;)
>
>
>You are not only talking about the wrong country (hint Henry VIII was
>English) but the Flemish influence was in Scotland way before the dates you
>suggest. The Flemish community in Berwick were massacred by Edward I during
>the English invasion of the 1290s. The rise of the Scottish burghs had
>started well before that date. Even take your own last name. "Surnames of
>Scotland" by Black states that Berowald, who was a Fleming, was granted a
>charter for the lands of Ineess et Etherurecard (Easter Urquhart) in the
>reign of Malcolm IV. Malcolm reigned in the mid 12thC. Berowald the Fleming
>was the first person on record to use your own last name. A further charter
>was granted to a Walter de Ineys in 1226 who was Berowald's grandson.
>
>
>
>
>>> This Northumbrian/Anglo-Danish mix then became the language of trade then
>>> royal power.
>>
>> I am unsure to which period of time you refer, but the language spoken in
>> Kent was the one that eventually dominated trade
>
>We have been talking about the rise of the Scottish burghs and the incoming
>merchants. Hence we are talking about something which started in the reign
>of David I in the early to mid 12thC. This is pretty basic Scottish history.
>What has Kent got to do with the language in which trade was carried out in
>Scotland? The mind is starting to boggle here.
>
>
>Allan
>
Never mind Allan - you may be sure that I support every word you've
written to date, especially considering that I have suddenly become a
Lowlander with Lowland orientations!
I miss Galashiels - the bens, the glens, Strath Selkirk, Ben Eildon,
the ceilidhs, the soft sounds of Gaelic in the streets, cutting the
peat in the Greenyards, working on the banks of Caddon Water, hauling
in the nets, filled with shoals of herring making their way up to St.
Mary's Loch - ochone, ochone.
I think we'll have to change the name of the Borders to the Galltachd;
the place where the people speak Gall, just like they do in Mull,
according to Mr. Innes.
Pye Chove ass we say in Gala, it iss a winderful pictur Himself hass
of ta Lowlans!
The Highlander
Tilgibh smucaid air do làmhan,
togaibh a' bhratach dhubh agus
toisichibh a' geàrradh na sgòrnanan!
--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)
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