XPost: alt.religion.christian.adventist, alt.religion.christian.boston-church,   
   alt.religion.christian.baptist   
   XPost: alt.religion.christian.biblestudy   
   From: s9641315@singnet.com.sg   
      
   Could someone please explain to me EXACTLY how the crucifixion of Jesus   
    prevented men (I presume you mean "people") going to Hell.   
      
   Frankie's reply: This is kind of Justice in the courts of Heaven,and even on   
   Earth we practice such practises.   
      
   Someone must pay for the sins of human.Does the word redemption,restitution   
   rings a bell in you?What about scape goat?   
      
   Jesus is liken to a scape goat.   
      
   God must and surely punish all sinners and would not let anyone cross into   
   Heavens with sins,and unhallowed nature are forbidden.Only a clean person   
   may enter.Can someone ever wash your sins away?No way!Even God who forgive   
   you of your sins,cannot take away your sins at all.Why?Sins must pay.If you   
   did something wrong,you pay for it.I may forgive you,but the outstanding   
   debts still eventually had to be paid.   
      
   Jesus is the Payer,and took upon Himself the sins of this world.He paid by   
   His blood to statisfy the demands of Justice.No one ever from eternity to   
   eternity could ever again grumble on that Paid price,nor deny your entry   
   into Heaven if you have the Ransom price paid.   
      
   Moses could not enter Heaven,so do Abraham,nor Elijah.It is Jesus who paid   
   for their sins,which permit them enter Heavens.   
      
   ## Ian: 2)  Who said anyone was going to Hell in the first place. There is   
   nothing   
    in either the New or Old Testament that says God was planning to dump   
    everyone in Hell before Jesus came along. Jesus himself (as he is reported)   
    never said people would go to Hell, but merely that certain people would   
   not   
    enter Heaven.   
      
   Reply: You are wrong.There are plenty of places that said so.   
      
   The world is already condemned,condemned already and is in Judgment,or   
   Judgment had been entered into,which is against them.   
   What Jesus did was; to redeem,paid the price,and rescue as many as   
   possible,and as many as would like Him to rescue.   
      
   That is what it is.   
      
      
   "Eliyahu"  wrote in message   
   news:7332f93b.0402250825.2cc733bc@posting.google.com...   
   > Bs'd   
   >   
   > ..Who and what is the messiah? Let us check according to the Holy   
   > Hebrew scriptures what the messiah is supposed to do. .....   
   > ..   
   > Micha 5:2-9; "But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among   
   > the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me   
   > that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of   
   > old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time   
   > that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his   
   > brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand   
   > and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of   
   > the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for NOW shall he be great unto   
   > the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the   
   > Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our   
   > palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight   
   > principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the   
   > sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he   
   > deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when   
   > he treadeth within our borders. And the remnant of Jacob shall be in   
   > the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon   
   > the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.   
   > And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of   
   > many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion   
   > among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down,   
   > and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Thine hand shall be   
   > lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut   
   > off."   
   >   
   > Here we have very clearly physical redemption from earthly enemies:   
   > "And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword", "Thine hand   
   > shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall   
   > be cut off." These are very clear verses that can not be   
   > misinterpreted; when the messiah comes the Jewish enemies are going to   
   > be slaughtered. And the one coming forth from Bethlehem is to be a   
   > ruler in Israel, that is a king, or maybe nowadays a president, but   
   > not a wandering preacher and miracle healer.   
   >   
   > .........Zacheriah 9:9-10; "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion;   
   > shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he   
   > is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon   
   > a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from   
   > Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut   
   > off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall   
   > be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the   
   > earth."   
   >   
   > They say that he did ride on a donkey, like the whole Middle East in   
   > those days, but that is where it stops. He did not bring any peace,   
   > the battle bow, the horses and the chariots, symbols of war, were not   
   > cut off from Jerusalem, and his dominion was not from sea to sea and   
   > to the ends of the earth; as a matter of fact, he did not have any   
   > dominion at all.   
   > In order to get around this problem, the Christian church invented the   
   > "second coming". However, nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures is it   
   > written that the messiah would come once, get himself killed, and come   
   > again in a second coming. This is a pure rationalization of Jesus'   
   > failure to function in any way as a messiah. Nowhere in any of the   
   > above prophecies does it indicate that there will be a gap of at least   
   > 2000 years between the birth of the messiah and the redemption.   
   > Nowhere does it speak about a messiah being tortured to death and   
   > coming back thousands of years later.   
   >   
   > .........Jeremiah 23:5-6; "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that   
   > I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and   
   > prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his   
   > days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is   
   > his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."   
   >   
   > ..........Jeremiah 33:14-16: "IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME, will I   
   > cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall   
   > execute judgment and righteousness in the land. IN THOSE DAYS shall   
   > Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name   
   > wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness."   
   >   
   > When the branch of righteousness springs forth to David, when the   
   > messiah comes, THEN, IN THOSE DAYS, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem   
   > shall dwell safely. That means that it is impossible to squeeze in two   
   > thousand or more years between the coming of the messiah and the   
   > redemption of Judah and Jerusalem. Out goes the 'second coming'.   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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