XPost: rec.arts.books, alt.books.cs-lewis, rec.arts.books.childrens   
   XPost: rec.arts.books.tolkien   
   From: kimmerian@fastmail.fm   
      
   Steve Hayes :   
      
   > Pullman's notion of god is   
      
        Pullman's theology isn't what you think.  According to you   
   Christians worship the demiurge in his books.  Not true.   
   Yahweh -- the orthodox Christian diety -- is explicitly said to   
   _not_ be demiurgical, as I already reminded you.  "He was   
   never the creator," the angel Balthamos states, making nonsense   
   of your idea.   
      
   > closer to the Gnostic view than the Christian one:   
      
        You're confused.  Gnosticism more often than not is a form   
   of Christianity -- possibly the original one, tho that's a   
   literally ancient debate -- and Pullman stands in opposition to   
   the gnostic perspective by exempting the Creator from the   
   criticism aimed at his villains (the Authority, et al.) as well   
   as by affirming material existence, while his angels'   
   preaching about hard work, patience, and cheery-eyed submission   
   to the demands of worldly life would be at home in any   
   conventional Christian Sunday-school.  You got it all backwards.   
      
   >          Source: Pagels 1981:70.   
      
        Actually you're quoting Pagels' popular book, _The Gnostic   
   Gospels_, which came out in 1979.   
      
   >     "The gnostic teacher Justinus describes the Lord's shock,   
   >   terror and anxiety 'when he discovered that he was not the God   
   >   of the universe'. Gradually his shock gave way to wonder, and   
   >   finally he came to welcome what Wisdom had taught him. The   
   >   teacher concludes: 'This is the meaning of the saying, "The   
   >   fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom."'"   
      
        Pagels' source, Hippolytus, credits the above to Basilides   
   instead of Justinus, and to complicate things there are two   
   very different acounts:  the one provided by Hippolytus and the   
   earlier version found in Irenaeus.  Anyway, the story in   
   Hippolytus plainly labels the Lord the demiurge and assigns him   
   "the entire celestial creation" (see _Refutation_ 7.10) in   
   obvious contrast to Pullman's narrative, where the Authority is   
   _not_ the maker of this world.   
      
   -- Catawumpus   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)