XPost: rec.arts.books.tolkien, alt.books.cs-lewis   
   From: hayesstw@telkomsa.net   
      
   On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 10:54:47 -0700, Paul S. Person   
    wrote:   
      
   >On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 01:00:45 -0500, Weland  wrote:   
   >   
   >>Stan Brown wrote:   
   >>> "But he went further than human tyrants in pride and the lust for   
   >>> domination, being in origin an immortal (angelic) spirit.*   
   >>>   
   >>> "*Of the same kind as Gandalf and Saruman, but of a far higher   
   >>> order."   
   >>>   
   >>> Was this a slip by Tolkien, or were there actually "orders" within   
   >>> the Maiar?   
   >>>   
   >>> I can see that Sauron was (originally) greater than Gandalf (Olórin),   
   >>> but what if anything does Tolkien mean by "a FAR higher order"?   
   >>>   
   >>   
   >>Paul points to Aquinas, though the tradition of angelic orders is far   
   >>older than he going back into the third century CE at least.  But he   
   >>makes a good point: the orders of the angels likely are the background   
   >>for Tolkien's late comments about "order" among the Maia.   
   >   
   >The tradition of angelic orders is indeed far older than Aquinas, a   
   >fact which causes him considerable difficulty, as the "tradition"   
   >contains /two different rankings/ of the same orders, and he is trying   
   >to produce a single, definitive answer.   
      
   The book to read is "The celestial hierarchy" by ("Pseudo") Dionysius the   
   Areopagite.   
      
   In Charles Williams's "The place of the lion" a different order is followed   
   from that of Dionysius.   
      
   In the Bible we read of different kinds of angelic beings with different   
   names. These have been systematised by St Dionysius the Areopagite and others   
   of the Church Fathers into nine ranks, composed of three divisions of three,   
   as follows:   
      
   1. Seraphim   
   2. Cherubim   
   3. Thrones (Gk: throni)   
      
   4. Dominions or Lordships (Gk: kyriotites)   
   5. Powers (or Virtues) (Gk: dynamis)   
   6. Authorities (Gk: exousie)   
      
   7. Rulers or Princes or Principalities ( Gk: archi)   
   8. Archangels   
   9. Angels   
      
   Though "angels" is the term for those of the lowest rank, it is also used as a   
   generic term for all nine ranks. As St Dionysius the Areopagite says:   
      
   "Now we maintain that in these Hierarchies the higher Orders possess the   
   illuminations and powers of the lower ranks, but the lower do not participate   
   equally with those above them. Hence the theologians call the higher of these   
   spiritual Orders Angels because they, too, show forth the Divine Radiance; but   
   we can find no reason for calling the lowest choirs of the Celestial   
   Intelligences Principalities or Thrones or Seraphim, for they do not manifest   
   in the same degree that supremely excellent power; but just as they guide our   
   inspired hierarchs to the Divine Brightness known to them, so do those most   
   holy Powers which are above them lead to the Divine Majesty those ranks which   
   complete the Angelic Hierarchies."   
      
   Some theologians have given a slightly different order, and sometimes the   
   Greek words have been translated into English in different ways. We should be   
   aware that in speaking of these powers we are dealing  with things that are   
   invisible and beyond our sensory experience. We may describe them in sensory   
   images, but these are translations of things not fully describable in human   
   terms. So the different images may overlap, or may at time seem to contradict   
   one another. We are not to take all this imagery literally.   
      
      
   --   
   Steve Hayes   
   Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm   
        http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw   
        http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius   
      
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