XPost: rec.arts.books.tolkien, alt.fan.tolkien, alt.fan.harry-potter   
   From: Troels@ThisIsFake.invalid   
      
   In message    
   Weland  spoke these staves:   
   >   
   > On 10/17/2010 3:34 PM, Troels Forchhammer wrote:   
   >> In message   
   >> Weland  spoke these staves:   
   >>>   
   >>> On 10/10/2010 9:49 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:   
   >>>>   
      
      
      
   >>> I would say that one of the traditions Rowling is following is   
   >>> Lewis and Tolkien, rather than the Inklings. And it should be no   
   >>> surprise: she's educated in the British system,   
   >> [...]   
   >>> There's no question she's influenced by the same texts as Lewis   
   >>> and Tolkien, and in addition by those authors as well as by T.   
   >>> H. White among other things.  So sure, following at least in   
   >>> part the tradition of the "Inklings", but hardly an honorary   
   >>> Inkling.   
   >>   
   >> But, as you put it here, you seem to imply that this tradition is   
   >> merely the tradition of any reasonably well-educated British   
   >> fantasy author? I'm sure much of the same could be said, for   
   >> instance, of Philip Pullman . . .   
   >   
   > Finally getting to this, your estimable post, Troels.  I haven't   
   > read Pullman, so I can't judge.  But no, I think the influence   
   > goes beyond mere general, well-educated British authors and goes   
   > rather more specifically to various types of Medieval literature,   
   > the Romance in particular and the influences of that genre.   
   > Someone reading more modern literature would not have those   
   > influences.   
      
   Right, thank you.   
      
   I guess that I have, for Rowling, been more aware of the later,   
   Romance, influences, and for Tolkien I have been more aware of the   
   earlier (before ca. 1000 AD) influences (plus the Kalevala).   
      
   Rowling appears to build her sub-creation mostly on various folk-lore   
   and folk-tale elements that belong to the last couple of centuries --   
   some of the folk-tales of course have longer traditions, but they have   
   been collected and written down in this period, and much of the present   
   day folk-lore concerning vampires, werewolves etc. etc. originate in   
   these old folk-tales and have been developed in various later fiction.   
   The classical influences seem to me to be limited mainly to languages   
   rather than stories: spells and names.   
      
   Tolkien, on the other hand, appears to build his sub-creation mostly on   
   elements from much earlier (by a millennium or so) sources such as   
   Anglo-Saxon, Old Norse and classical mythologies and legends.   
      
   Incidentally, when I say that they 'appear to build their sub-creations   
   mostly on' some element, my intention is that, when sub-creating, they   
   have borrowed mainly from certain parts of the soup when making their   
   own dish -- a dish to which both authors add a lot that is their own.   
      
   I am not so sure about Lewis, though certain classical elements are   
   clearly visible in his Narnia books (some of the creatures in Narnia   
   are, for instance, taken from classical mythologies).   
      
   But perhaps I am looking too much at the surface elements -- those   
   elements that can be readily identified because they walk about freely   
   in the author's Secondary Reality, rather than looking deeper into the   
   sources and influences that have shaped the stories themselves.   
      
   However, I am always wary of claims of classical influence, precisely   
   because the great classic Greek and Roman stories have been used for   
   inspirations in Western tradition ever since they were written, they   
   permeate all of Wester literature up to this very day, so that, even if   
   you know these tales, the influence may come from elsewhere and yet end   
   up looking as if it was from a Greek tragedy (or whatever). Of course,   
   _ultimately_ it is all the same because in just about every single   
   piece of Western literature there will be a chain of sources that go   
   back to Greek and / or Roman texts, whether the author is aware of   
   these texts or not.   
      
   >> Is there anything that distinguishes the Inklings from the   
   >> broader background of British twentieth-century (sub-creative?)   
   >> literature?   
   >   
   > Well, to be honest, I'm thinking more of Lewis and Tolkien than   
   > the Inklings in general. And in that sense, yes, both Lewis and   
   > Tolkien are reinventing and drawing on medieval and Renaissance   
   > materials without overly modernizing them as part of their   
   > subcreative process.  Both are also drawing on language in ways   
   > that Rowling at least tries to imitate that other British fantasy   
   > writers don't.  (Though Gaiman, at least in what I've read of him,   
   > certainly does.)   
      
   In another message, in response to Steve (Message-ID: ) you also write:   
   | By tradition of the Inklings I would mean writing a kind of   
   | literature from a particular world view, inspired by a certain set   
   | of texts/ideas, and using an understanding of myth and archetype.   
   | I would agree on those terms that Rowling fits, perhaps loosely.   
   | I might be convinced otherwise.  But she is in no way in my view an   
   | "honorary Inkling".   
      
   I don't know whether this, too, applies more to Tolkien and Lewis, but   
   since I don't really know the writings of other Inklings, it doesn't   
   really matter to me ;-)   
      
   As said before, I seek to learn, here. I know both Tolkien and Rowling   
   fairly well, but I am more or less blank with regards to the other   
   Inklings (apart from the Narnia books -- and I've also read most of   
   Sayers' detection stories, but she counts only as an Inkling   
   associate). So, in an attempt to impose some order on this, and   
   combining what you've said, I've constructed the following list   
      
   1: Inspired (pre-dominantly) by a certain set of texts:   
      - Classical Greek and Roman texts   
      - Anglo-Saxon texts   
      - Old Norse texts   
      - Nineteenth century collections of folk-lore and legend   
        (Lönnrot, Grimm, Grundtvig, . . .)   
      - The Bible   
      Other common sources? (I suppose that saying Shakespeare is more   
      or less a tautology when noting that these are English authors)   
   2: Inspired by a certain set of ideas:   
      - Christian thought   
      - ??   
      (I know there are others, but which are they?)   
   3: 'Drawing on language' -- at a minimum there is a consciousness   
      and deliberateness about their use of languages, both the   
      vernacular of the characters and other languages.   
   4: Not trying to modernize the elements from the source material that   
      are re-used in the sub-created world (nor trying to mediate between   
      the reader and the source).   
      
   Is this a fair representation?   
      
   Is anything missing?   
      
   And what does other Inklings enthusiasts here say about this list?   
      
   - Is this a fair attempt to describe a literary 'tradition of the   
     Inklings' (acknowledging that this does not include their practice   
     of reading their work to each other and criticising each others'   
     works quite frankly)?   
   - Or does this really only apply to Tolkien and Lewis?   
      
   I am curious about your statement that they (Tolkien and Lewis) are   
   'reinventing and drawing on medieval and Renaissance materials without   
   overly modernizing them as part of their subcreative process'. I get   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)