XPost: rec.arts.books.tolkien, alt.fan.tolkien, alt.fan.harry-potter   
   From: giles@poetic.com   
      
   On 10/24/2010 6:43 AM, Troels Forchhammer wrote:   
   > In message   
   > Weland  spoke these staves:   
   >>   
   >> On 10/17/2010 3:34 PM, Troels Forchhammer wrote:   
   >>> In message   
   >>> Weland   spoke these staves:   
   >>>>   
   >>>> On 10/10/2010 9:49 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:   
   >>>>>   
   >   
   >    
   >   
   >>>> I would say that one of the traditions Rowling is following is   
   >>>> Lewis and Tolkien, rather than the Inklings. And it should be no   
   >>>> surprise: she's educated in the British system,   
   >>> [...]   
   >>>> There's no question she's influenced by the same texts as Lewis   
   >>>> and Tolkien, and in addition by those authors as well as by T.   
   >>>> H. White among other things.  So sure, following at least in   
   >>>> part the tradition of the "Inklings", but hardly an honorary   
   >>>> Inkling.   
   >>>   
   >>> But, as you put it here, you seem to imply that this tradition is   
   >>> merely the tradition of any reasonably well-educated British   
   >>> fantasy author? I'm sure much of the same could be said, for   
   >>> instance, of Philip Pullman . . .   
   >>   
   >> Finally getting to this, your estimable post, Troels.  I haven't   
   >> read Pullman, so I can't judge.  But no, I think the influence   
   >> goes beyond mere general, well-educated British authors and goes   
   >> rather more specifically to various types of Medieval literature,   
   >> the Romance in particular and the influences of that genre.   
   >> Someone reading more modern literature would not have those   
   >> influences.   
   >   
   > Right, thank you.   
   >   
   > I guess that I have, for Rowling, been more aware of the later,   
   > Romance, influences, and for Tolkien I have been more aware of the   
   > earlier (before ca. 1000 AD) influences (plus the Kalevala).   
      
   I hope we're using Romance in the same way....just to clarify I'm   
   thinking of Matter of Britain, the Matter of Troy, and the Matter of France.   
      
   And of course the Kalevala fits your description below of a collection   
   of tales that may have a much longer, older tradition, but still is   
   quite new.   
      
   >   
   > Rowling appears to build her sub-creation mostly on various folk-lore   
   > and folk-tale elements that belong to the last couple of centuries --   
   > some of the folk-tales of course have longer traditions, but they have   
   > been collected and written down in this period, and much of the present   
   > day folk-lore concerning vampires, werewolves etc. etc. originate in   
   > these old folk-tales and have been developed in various later fiction.   
      
   Sure.  But I'd say that those are externals, stage dressing.  The   
   essentials of the narrative: orphaned boy is really something far   
   greater and "destined" to great things is far older: Scyld Scefing?   
   Beowulf?  Arthur?  The "twins" who battle against each other is pretty   
   old too.  The last novel is based on a clever reinterpretation of   
   Chaucer's Pardoner's Tale.  The idea of a series of "battles" or   
   "contests" that become successively more difficult until the hero   
   achieves success is also quite ancient.  And so on....   
      
   > The classical influences seem to me to be limited mainly to languages   
   > rather than stories: spells and names.   
      
   They aren't as obvious, I'll grant, but many of the archetypes are there   
   as well....part of the cauldron from which she is taking.   
   >   
   > Tolkien, on the other hand, appears to build his sub-creation mostly on   
   > elements from much earlier (by a millennium or so) sources such as   
   > Anglo-Saxon, Old Norse and classical mythologies and legends.   
      
   See above, though I'd agree that her dependence is less on the OE and   
   ON...less "northerness" than Tolkien, but as much as Tolkien draws on   
   those traditions, he also draws on later materials such as Sir Orfeo,   
   Pearl, Chaucer, among others, heck even Shakespeare and Dante!   
      
   > Incidentally, when I say that they 'appear to build their sub-creations   
   > mostly on' some element, my intention is that, when sub-creating, they   
   > have borrowed mainly from certain parts of the soup when making their   
   > own dish -- a dish to which both authors add a lot that is their own.   
   >   
   > I am not so sure about Lewis, though certain classical elements are   
   > clearly visible in his Narnia books (some of the creatures in Narnia   
   > are, for instance, taken from classical mythologies).   
      
   Yes, hard to pick up the threads when so ubiquitous, though my own   
   feeling is that Lewis is more dependent on medieval and Renaissance   
   renderings of the classical myths....   
   >   
   > But perhaps I am looking too much at the surface elements -- those   
   > elements that can be readily identified because they walk about freely   
   > in the author's Secondary Reality, rather than looking deeper into the   
   > sources and influences that have shaped the stories themselves.   
   >   
   > However, I am always wary of claims of classical influence,   
      
   Me too!  I don't recall making a specific claim about classical   
   influence (did I?  I remember medieval and Renaissance, but not   
   classical...do correct me if I'm wrong), but I'd agree that one has to   
   be careful considering the ubiquity of certain "classical" stories.   
      
     precisely   
   > because the great classic Greek and Roman stories have been used for   
   > inspirations in Western tradition ever since they were written, they   
   > permeate all of Wester literature up to this very day, so that, even if   
   > you know these tales, the influence may come from elsewhere and yet end   
   > up looking as if it was from a Greek tragedy (or whatever). Of course,   
   > _ultimately_ it is all the same because in just about every single   
   > piece of Western literature there will be a chain of sources that go   
   > back to Greek and / or Roman texts, whether the author is aware of   
   > these texts or not.   
   >   
   >>> Is there anything that distinguishes the Inklings from the   
   >>> broader background of British twentieth-century (sub-creative?)   
   >>> literature?   
   >>   
   >> Well, to be honest, I'm thinking more of Lewis and Tolkien than   
   >> the Inklings in general. And in that sense, yes, both Lewis and   
   >> Tolkien are reinventing and drawing on medieval and Renaissance   
   >> materials without overly modernizing them as part of their   
   >> subcreative process.  Both are also drawing on language in ways   
   >> that Rowling at least tries to imitate that other British fantasy   
   >> writers don't.  (Though Gaiman, at least in what I've read of him,   
   >> certainly does.)   
   >   
   > In another message, in response to Steve (Message-ID: @news.eternal-september.org>) you also write:   
   > | By tradition of the Inklings I would mean writing a kind of   
      
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