XPost: alt.books.cs-lewis, rec.arts.books.tolkien   
   From: the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm   
      
   On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 09:04:12 -0400 in rec.arts.books.tolkien, Joseph   
   favored us with...   
   > In another thread, folks are debating whether it was proper for Gandalf to   
   > threaten Gollum in order to gain vital information which would help avert   
   > catastrophe. I say heck yes and more! It would have been proper for Sam to   
   > shove Frodo into the fires of Mount Doom in order to avert that same   
   > catastrope. I'm not saying he *could* have done it. But I am asserting that   
   > he this would indeed have been the proper thing for him to do at that point,   
   > if he *could* have done it.   
      
   These are not AT ALL the same situation.   
      
   For Gandalf to torture Gollum to obtain information is orc work. The   
   end does not justify the means, you know. Tolkien says several times,   
   in different ways, that if you pursue even a good end by evil means,   
   the result will be not good but evil.   
      
   For Sam to push Frodo into the Sammath Naur would be right not only   
   because it would be the only way to save the world but because it   
   would be the only way to save Frodo himself. Whether he could have   
   done it is an open question, as you suggest.   
      
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