XPost: alt.books.cs-lewis, rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: joseph@nospam.com
"Graham Lockwood"
> The quote up for debate in another thread is that Gandalf said that "I
> endured him as long as I could, but the truth was desperately important,
> and
> in the end I had to be harsh. I put the fear of fire on him, and wrung the
> true story out of him, bit by bit, together which much snivelling and
> snarling."
>
> One can argue about what exactly "the fear of fire" means, but I don't see
> how it can mean simple slapping around.
From your quote, I think the significant phrases are 'harsh' and 'fear of
fire' none of which comes close to suggesting torture.
* harsh - Gandlaf was pretty harsh with Bilbo in forcing him to give up the
ring. No torture was involved.
* fear or fire - an idiom, analogous to today's expression 'put the fear of
god into him'.
It is so simple to read strictness and toughness into Gandalf's dealings
with Gollum, and leave any suggestion of torture out. In fact, torture would
be so inconsistent with Gandalf himself in general, and inconsistent with
his statements about Gollum in particular, that I fail to see why anyone
would want to interpret this paragraph as the suggestion that some sort of
torture was used by Gandalf in his interrogation of Gollum.
"Graham Lockwood"
> Moreover, Gandalf says that after having been to Mordor, Gollum "rubbed
> his
> long hands, licking his fingers as if they pained him, as if he remembered
> some old torture."
I'm sure that Mordor was no picnic for Gollum under any circumstances. From
what I've seen, it doesn't seem to be a popular 'vacation spot'.
> Also, Gandalf says that Gollum would not talk about what happened to him
> in
> Mordor because "Some other fear was on him greater than mine."
I think this statement proves my point. Gandalf merely put a fear into
Gollum. 'Listen buddy, either answers or a one-way trip back to your pals in
Mordor' - that sort of thing.
- Joseph
"Graham Lockwood" wrote in message
news:0001HW.BF6F6D18004177BDF0407600@news.dallas.sbcglobal.net...
> On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 20:47:02 -0500, Joseph wrote
> (in article ):
>
>> "Stan Brown" wrote in message
>> news:MPG.1db388b5bbead0b6989966@news.individual.net...
>>> For Gandalf to torture Gollum to obtain information is orc work.
>>
>> For crying out loud, who said anything about torture? Where is it even
>> implied? Gollum was such a snivelling little jerk, that even just
>> threatening a smack, or slipping a shackle around his throat with the
>> threat
>> of incarceration would have certainly done the trick. Personally, I
>> thought
>> the scene in the movie which framed Gollum as a 'tough-guy' who had to be
>> tortured in order to reveal what he knew about the the ring's whereabouts
>> just didn't ring true with Gollum's snivelling personality.
> {snip}
>
> The quote up for debate in another thread is that Gandalf said that "I
> endured him as long as I could, but the truth was desperately important,
> and
> in the end I had to be harsh. I put the fear of fire on him, and wrung the
> true story out of him, bit by bit, together which much snivelling and
> snarling."
>
> One can argue about what exactly "the fear of fire" means, but I don't see
> how it can mean simple slapping around.
>
> Moreover, Gandalf says that after having been to Mordor, Gollum "rubbed
> his
> long hands, licking his fingers as if they pained him, as if he remembered
> some old torture."
>
> Also, Gandalf says that Gollum would not talk about what happened to him
> in
> Mordor because "Some other fear was on him greater than mine." So whatever
> Gandalf DID do to him, it apparently wasn't as bad as what was done to him
> in
> Mordor. Which shouldn't really come as a surprise to anyone, I'm sure.
>
>
>
> ---
> Graham
>
--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)
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