XPost: alt.books.cs-lewis, rec.arts.books.tolkien   
   From: joseph@nospam.com   
      
   Me:   
   >> For crying out loud, who said anything about torture?   
      
   Stan Brown:   
   > Gandalf did, actually. "I put the fear of fire on him, and wrung the   
   > true story out of him, bit by bit."   
   >   
   > Note that it was the _threat_ of torture, rather than actual torture.   
   > But still Gollum suffered: "... together with much snivelling and   
   > snarling. He thought he was misunderstood and ill-used."   
      
   I don't get your code of morality. If an individual suffers because his poor   
   behavior doesn't conform to proper conduct (e.g. prisoner goes to prison),   
   who's fault is that? (I'll leave 'proper conduct' undefined. You can define   
   it as rules of society, religion, however you want, but let's leave the   
   basis for 'proper conduct' undefined.)   
      
   So if Gollum wouldn't give Gandalf the information he needed, and   
   subsequently suffered fear of harsh interrogation how is that suffering   
   Gandalf's responsibility? Gollum brought it upon himself.   
      
   And if you will defend your position by claiming that Gollumn's right to   
   withold the information was equal to Gandalf's right to request it, (i.e.   
   equating Gollum's conduct with Gandalf's conduct in terms of propriety) then   
   I'm afraid that we simply don't have any common ground with which to   
   continue. But I don't think that that's what you are saying, is it?   
      
   Stan Brown:   
   > Was Gandalf too harsh, given the circumstances? I guess not. But the   
   > big question is what Gandalf would have done if the "fear of fire"   
   > had not been enough to loosen Gollum's tongue. Would he actually have   
   > burned him? I hope not.   
      
   I guess he'd have done what he had to do. The choice of whether to suffer   
   would have been Gollum's. But in any event, it never went that far.   
      
   - Joseph   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)