XPost: rec.arts.books.tolkien, alt.books.cs-lewis, rec.arts.books   
   XPost: rec.arts.books.childrens   
   From: spamgard@blueyonder.co.uk   
      
   nystulc@cs.com  wrote (in response to bits by Steuard   
   Jensen, who wrote all the other bits):   
      
   [Also, this post has some on-topic Tolkien stuff as well!]   
      
      
      
   > You project the near omniscience of modern science, within a world   
   > shrunken by the miracles or air travel, photography, and electronic   
   > communication, backwards onto a quasi-medieval era.  In Medieval   
   > times, giants, elephants, unicorns, whales and mermaids were all   
   > about equally real or equally mythical to those who had never seen   
   > them.   
      
   Very good point. I've snipped most of your post, which I thought was   
   very good and made things a lot clearer for me, but I especially liked   
   this bit.   
      
   > In pre-modern times, it was usual for perspectives to be quite local   
   > and parochial.  Only adventurers and travelers typically knew what lay   
   > beyond a few days walk, and travelers tales, in ancient times, were   
   > infamous for being filled with wonders and marvels, for which the wise   
   > man would express a healthy skepticism.   
      
   But the wise man wouldn't really be certain of that. A wise man today   
   has a little bit more to go by, but those who would believe in almost   
   anything that takes their fancy are still depressingly common today.   
      
   >> For this title to appear in Tumnus's library, not only must King   
   >> Frank and all his descendants have been reduced to fairy tales (which   
   >> would take a long time!), [...]   
   >   
   > This is a problem?  The problem, then, is not with any lack of realism   
   > on the part of Lewis.  Frank & Helen's desendants ruled for many   
   > hundreds of years before the Witch came, and then the Witch ruled for   
   > God knows how many centuries thereafter.  It takes far less time than   
   > that to turn a historical figure into a fairy tale.  King Arthur was   
   > turned into a fairly tale within a couple of hundred years.  The city   
   > of Troy was turned into a fairy tale within a couple of hundred years.   
   > No-one was trying to suppress these stories, as Jadis may have wished   
   > to suppress Frank & Helen.  In the absence of accurate written records   
   > that actually survive, events become fairy tales upon the deaths of   
   > those who actually rembember them.   
      
   Which prompts speculation on what the fairy-tales of the future will be.   
   It would seem that records would have a better chance of surviving from   
   this day and age, but there are theories that the sheer weight of time,   
   along with information overload, and the survival of competing   
   worldviews and versions of history, will make for an interesting mix of   
   "truth", "history" and "fairy tales" of our times, in, say, a few   
   hundred years. What will be remembered longer? Big Brother the reality   
   TV show, or Big Brother the Orwellian vision of the future?   
      
   > Your expectations may be spoiled by Tolkien, whose accurate ancient   
   > records were derived from the memories of Immortal Elves.  But it was   
   > only Elvish immortality that make these accurate 10,000 year histories   
   > plausible.   
      
   Will our extelligence, our records and culture, be preserved adequately   
   so that the next 10,000 years will have a better recorded history than   
   the last 10,000 years?   
      
   >  Is it not clear that it is JADIS who has gone   
   > to enormous trouble to make sure that Narnia is 100% human free.  And   
   > is it not clear that she is doing this because she is worried about   
   > the prophesy?  Is it not clear that she has her agents, including   
   > Tumnus, watching her borders to make sure no humans get in?  Is it   
   > not at least strongly implied, from the letter left by   
   > Maugrim/Fenris, that she has made "Fraternizing with Humans" a crime   
   > analogous to treason?   
      
   This was all clear to me when I read LWW. What wasn't clear to me was   
   whether Jadis overthrew a human king and queen of Narnia. I got the   
   impression that the line of Adam and Eve died out in Narnia, for   
   whatever reason, and that Jadis conquered a Narnia that did not have a   
   king and queen, and were waiting for the prophecy about Cair Paravel to   
   be fulfilled.   
      
   The jarring note for me, when reading the later books, is how the world   
   outside Narnia is revealed, and it seems much larger than what we read   
   about in LWW. The impression from LWW is that Narnia is the whole world.   
   It is a wrong impression, but it can be difficult to throw off, and may   
   explain the later confusion that Steuard was describing.   
      
   R. Dan Henry put it much better here:   
      
   "LWW makes Narnia seem a vast realm in a world of magical creatures. The   
   discovery of so much mundane humanity is something of a disappointing   
   surprise."   
      
   >> The later revelation that seemingly the vast majority   
   >> of the inhabitants of Narnia's world were human is completely at odds   
   >> with this impression.   
   >   
   > There is no such revelation.  There is a fairly large human   
   > civilization far to the South, and a substantial (but waning) Giant   
   > civilization to the North; lord knows what to the West, and an army of   
   > Gnomes underground.   
      
   I found that underground world, with creatures living in the firey   
   depths of the Earth, quite difficult to believe. It reminded me of the   
   sea-people that Lucy sees in 'The Voyage of the Dawn Treader'. The   
   interesting thing about 'The Silver Chair', for me, was the dealing with   
   issues of brainwashing, and how people can be made to believe the wrong   
   thing. But my perspective on that is from a decidedly non-theistic   
   viewpoint.   
      
      
      
   > Much forgotten history is likely to be recovered when one overthrows   
   > an immortal dictator and gains access to her secret archives.   
      
   I don't think you can postulate the existence of secret archives to   
   restore Narnian history. Just have those beavers who said something   
   along the lines of "us talking animals don't forget". Which was always a   
   bit annoying, I thought. Or maybe I am thinking of the beaver in Prince   
   Caspian? Or was it the bear? :-)   
      
      
      
   > LWW makes clear that the ruler of Narnia ought to be human, and the   
   > Queen claims to be human in deference to this tradition (if that is   
   > the right word).   
      
   Natural right. Divine order. Chain of being. That sort of thing. Stick   
   humans on top of creation. Makes us feel good.   
      
   >>>> The presence of /any/ humans in Narnia is a cause of concern for   
   >>>> the Witch.  And there are /four/ empty thrones in Cair Paravel:   
   >>>> those are clearly waiting for the Pevensies, not remnants of some   
   >>>> earlier human monarchy.  As far as we can tell, the four children   
   >>>> are the only humans in that world at the time, and perhaps the   
   >>>> only humans there ever.   
      
   As I said above, my speculation would be that some earlier human rulers   
   set that whole thing up, much like Turgon leaving stuff in that empty   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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