XPost: alt.books.cs-lewis, rec.arts.books.tolkien   
      
   William Cloud Hicklin  wrote:   
   > On Tue, 01 May 2007 12:58:08 -0400, Bill Baldwin   
   >  wrote:   
      
   >> I can't answer for Daryl. My answer is this. Jesus and the New   
   >> Testament declare that no one can come to the Father except through   
   >> him. Those who claim to approach the Father by another means do not   
   >> succeed according to that definition. They fail to approach the true   
   >> God as he has revealed himself incarnate in Christ. What they approach   
   >> is a god whom they define in some ways that are formally similar to the   
   >> God who has revealed himself incarnate in Christ, but who does not (in   
   >> their view) reveal himself incarnate in Christ.   
   >> I hope you can understand that position. It's not possible to discuss   
   >> if you want to skip that step and go straight to disagreeing.   
      
   > I do understand the position; but I can't agree.  By your rule they are   
   > simply not approaching at all, but the Father remains the Father.  It's   
   > absurd to claim that overnight the Temple at Jerusalem suddenly became the   
   > shrine of a false god.   
      
   > You're coming very close to the position that "anyone who doesn't believe   
   > precisely as I do is a devil-worshipper."  That's a very uncomfortable   
   > form of, among other things, arrogance. I clearly remember an Assembly of   
   > God sermon which forcefully distinguished "the Roman religion" from   
   > Christianity, and the mixture of anger and sadness felt by this particular   
   > Catholic.   
      
   You may find it uncomfortable, but do you think it is logically inconsistent?   
   That has been what the discussion has been about:  whether it is logically   
   inconsistent to believe that Muslim and Christians worship a different God.   
      
   There is no question that both groups believe they worship the God who spoke to   
   Abraham, but does that mean that they are in fact worshipping the same God?   
   That was the point of the various questions about Hindu's and people who   
   believe that God and Satan are the same being.  How exactly do you determine   
   the actual identity of the being someone worships? There are extremists out   
   there on all   
   sides who pray to the God of Abraham for the means to cause death and   
   destruction, and   
   I am sure they believe their prayers are being answered.  Are they mistaken?    
   Or   
   is something else answering their prayers?   
      
   For atheists this is easy.  There is no God who spoke to Abraham and nobody   
   is worshipping him, despite their belief, because he does not exist.  For   
   believers   
   it is a lot more challenging to come up with a consistent position.  It is   
   easiest to find consistency in the extreme positions: everyone is worshipping   
   the same God, no matter what they believe about him/her/it/them; or only the   
   people who understand God exactly as I do are worshipping God, and all others   
   are idolaters or devil-worshipers.   
      
   The middle ground is the challenge.   
      
   Stephen   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)