XPost: alt.books.cs-lewis, rec.arts.books.tolkien   
   From: jwkenne@attglobal.net   
      
   stephen@nomail.com wrote:   
   > Larry Swain  wrote:   
   >> Bill Baldwin wrote:   
   >>> John W. Kennedy (jwkenne@attglobal.net) wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>>   
   >>>> stephen@nomail.com wrote:   
   >>>>   
   >>>>> John W. Kennedy  wrote:   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>> stephen@nomail.com wrote:   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> John W. Kennedy  wrote:   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> stephen@nomail.com wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> John W. Kennedy  wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> darylgene@aol.com wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> I would simply say,   
   >>>>>>>>>>> again, that if the concept of God has any referent it must   
   >>>>>>>>>>> have boundries. Unless you think everyone worships the same   
   >>>>>>>>>>> God you have to make distinctions. If a person is a   
   >>>>>>>>>>> Christian, no matter what they believe, just because they   
   >>>>>>>>>>> say they are, the term is meaningless, no?   
   >>>>>>>>>> I quite agree that I would be happy if such devil worshipers   
   >>>>>>>>>> as Pat Robertson and George W. Bush would stop calling   
   >>>>>>>>>> themselves "Christian", but it remains the case that if you   
   >>>>>>>>>> deny that Jews worship the same God that Christians do, your   
   >>>>>>>>>> /own/ Christianity is put into serious doubt, "for Salvation   
   >>>>>>>>>> is of the Jews".   
   >>>>>>>>> How exactly have you concluded that Pat Robertson and George   
   >>>>>>>>> W. Bush are devil worshipers?  They seem to believe that they   
   >>>>>>>>> are worshiping the God of the Bible.  Do you think that they   
   >>>>>>>>> secretly address their prayers to Satan?  Or do you think   
   >>>>>>>>> that despite their belief that they are worshiping the   
   >>>>>>>>> Christian/Jewish/Muslim God that their actions indicate they   
   >>>>>>>>> are mistaken, and are instead worshiping something else?   
   >>>>>>>> Tashlan. They have their reward.   
   >>>>>>> That does not really answer the question.  Do you think   
   >>>>>>> Robertson and Bush think they are worshipping the   
   >>>>>>> Christian/Jewish/Muslim God, or do you think they think they   
   >>>>>>> are worshipping the Devil?   
   >>>>>> I suppose that depends on what you mean by "think". There can be   
   >>>>>> no serious doubt that Robertson believes that he is, in some   
   >>>>>> sense of historic continuity, a Christian, but the   
   >>>>>> evil-twin-of-Santa-Claus that he has in mind when he says "God"   
   >>>>>> can hardly be reconciled with that.   
   >>>>> And some people cannot reconcile the God Muslim's apparently have   
   >>>>> in mind with the Christian God they have in mind.  Why are you   
   >>>>> right about Robertson and his "God", but those others are wrong   
   >>>>> about Islam and the Christian God?   
   >>>> Because Moslems are a group of many, many diverse persons, some   
   >>>> wicked, some good, and some indifferent, and God only knows what   
   >>>> is in each one's heart, whereas Robertson and Bush are individuals   
   >>>> who have made their servitude to Hell quite clear.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   "Noi siam venuti al loco ov'i' t'ho detto   
   >>>>      che tu vedrai le genti dolorose   
   >>>>    c'hanno perduto il ben de l'intelletto."   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>   
   >>> That's fine, and it's a logically consistent answer. I'm not sure I   
   >>> agree, but I understand. What puzzles me is this. Maybe I lost track,   
   >>> but weren't you one of the ones who said my position was logically   
   >>> impossible because Muslims claim to worship the God who appeared to   
   >>> Abraham? But it seems you're willing to admit the validity of a   
   >>> distinction between the God a man claims to worship and the God he   
   >>> actually worships. Right?   
   >>>   
   >>> So our disagreement is over whether that distinction applies to   
   >>> Muslims, not over whether my position is logically possible. Does   
   >>> that make sense?   
   >>>   
   >> Which gets us back to the point I keep making and you keep passing over:   
   >> we aren't here discussing what a Muslim or a Christian or a Jew or any   
   >> individual believes.  We're discussing RELIGIONS that have MILLIONS of   
   >> adherents and MILLENIA of history.  You keep personalizing this   
   >> discussion that in origin wasn't personalized.   
   >   
   > What difference does that make?   
   >   
   > Look, if it is logically possible for Pat Robertson to be worshipping   
   > an evil twin of Santa Claus and not the God who spoke to Abraham despite   
   > his personal belief that he is worshipping the God who spoke to Abraham,   
   > then it is logically possible for any number of people, even MILLIONS,   
   > even entire RELIGIONS, to be worshiping some being other than the God   
   > who spoke to Abraham despite their belief that they are worshiping the   
   > God who spoke to Abraham.   
      
   The question is: who's paying attention? To be perfectly frank, the   
   average Moslem-on-the-street is a good deal more aware of some of God's   
   universal commandments than is the average American   
   Christian-on-the-street, while the worst of fundamentalist Islam and the   
   worst of fundamentalist Protestantism are, in many points, all but   
   interchangeable.   
      
   --   
   John W. Kennedy   
   "...when you're trying to build a house of cards, the last thing you   
   should do is blow hard and wave your hands like a madman."   
      --  Rupert Goodwins   
   * TagZilla 0.066 * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)