XPost: alt.books.cs-lewis, rec.arts.books.tolkien
John W. Kennedy wrote:
> stephen@nomail.com wrote:
>> Larry Swain wrote:
>>> Bill Baldwin wrote:
>>>> John W. Kennedy (jwkenne@attglobal.net) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> stephen@nomail.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> John W. Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> stephen@nomail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John W. Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> stephen@nomail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> John W. Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> darylgene@aol.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I would simply say,
>>>>>>>>>>>> again, that if the concept of God has any referent it must
>>>>>>>>>>>> have boundries. Unless you think everyone worships the same
>>>>>>>>>>>> God you have to make distinctions. If a person is a
>>>>>>>>>>>> Christian, no matter what they believe, just because they
>>>>>>>>>>>> say they are, the term is meaningless, no?
>>>>>>>>>>> I quite agree that I would be happy if such devil worshipers
>>>>>>>>>>> as Pat Robertson and George W. Bush would stop calling
>>>>>>>>>>> themselves "Christian", but it remains the case that if you
>>>>>>>>>>> deny that Jews worship the same God that Christians do, your
>>>>>>>>>>> /own/ Christianity is put into serious doubt, "for Salvation
>>>>>>>>>>> is of the Jews".
>>>>>>>>>> How exactly have you concluded that Pat Robertson and George
>>>>>>>>>> W. Bush are devil worshipers? They seem to believe that they
>>>>>>>>>> are worshiping the God of the Bible. Do you think that they
>>>>>>>>>> secretly address their prayers to Satan? Or do you think
>>>>>>>>>> that despite their belief that they are worshiping the
>>>>>>>>>> Christian/Jewish/Muslim God that their actions indicate they
>>>>>>>>>> are mistaken, and are instead worshiping something else?
>>>>>>>>> Tashlan. They have their reward.
>>>>>>>> That does not really answer the question. Do you think
>>>>>>>> Robertson and Bush think they are worshipping the
>>>>>>>> Christian/Jewish/Muslim God, or do you think they think they
>>>>>>>> are worshipping the Devil?
>>>>>>> I suppose that depends on what you mean by "think". There can be
>>>>>>> no serious doubt that Robertson believes that he is, in some
>>>>>>> sense of historic continuity, a Christian, but the
>>>>>>> evil-twin-of-Santa-Claus that he has in mind when he says "God"
>>>>>>> can hardly be reconciled with that.
>>>>>> And some people cannot reconcile the God Muslim's apparently have
>>>>>> in mind with the Christian God they have in mind. Why are you
>>>>>> right about Robertson and his "God", but those others are wrong
>>>>>> about Islam and the Christian God?
>>>>> Because Moslems are a group of many, many diverse persons, some
>>>>> wicked, some good, and some indifferent, and God only knows what
>>>>> is in each one's heart, whereas Robertson and Bush are individuals
>>>>> who have made their servitude to Hell quite clear.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Noi siam venuti al loco ov'i' t'ho detto
>>>>> che tu vedrai le genti dolorose
>>>>> c'hanno perduto il ben de l'intelletto."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's fine, and it's a logically consistent answer. I'm not sure I
>>>> agree, but I understand. What puzzles me is this. Maybe I lost track,
>>>> but weren't you one of the ones who said my position was logically
>>>> impossible because Muslims claim to worship the God who appeared to
>>>> Abraham? But it seems you're willing to admit the validity of a
>>>> distinction between the God a man claims to worship and the God he
>>>> actually worships. Right?
>>>>
>>>> So our disagreement is over whether that distinction applies to
>>>> Muslims, not over whether my position is logically possible. Does
>>>> that make sense?
>>>>
>>> Which gets us back to the point I keep making and you keep passing over:
>>> we aren't here discussing what a Muslim or a Christian or a Jew or any
>>> individual believes. We're discussing RELIGIONS that have MILLIONS of
>>> adherents and MILLENIA of history. You keep personalizing this
>>> discussion that in origin wasn't personalized.
>>
>> What difference does that make?
>>
>> Look, if it is logically possible for Pat Robertson to be worshipping
>> an evil twin of Santa Claus and not the God who spoke to Abraham despite
>> his personal belief that he is worshipping the God who spoke to Abraham,
>> then it is logically possible for any number of people, even MILLIONS,
>> even entire RELIGIONS, to be worshiping some being other than the God
>> who spoke to Abraham despite their belief that they are worshiping the
>> God who spoke to Abraham.
> The question is: who's paying attention?
No, that was not the question. Why are you trying to turn this into
an "us vs. them" thing?
You said:
"Islam says quite plainly that the God who ordered Abraham to sacrifice
Isaac is the same God who spoke to Mohammed, and it is useless to try to
maintain that they must be talking about some other Abraham."
It is also useless to maintain that Pat Robertson is talking
about some other Abraham, but you insist that Pat Robertson
is not worshiping the same God that "good" Christian's and Muslim's
do.
What exactly are the rules you use to determine if someone
is worshipping the true God of Abraham or an evil imposter?
If it is just a matter of how much they agree with your idea
of God, then why are others not free to draw their own conclusions
based on their ideas of God?
Stephen
> To be perfectly frank, the
> average Moslem-on-the-street is a good deal more aware of some of God's
> universal commandments than is the average American
> Christian-on-the-street, while the worst of fundamentalist Islam and the
> worst of fundamentalist Protestantism are, in many points, all but
> interchangeable.
> --
> John W. Kennedy
> "...when you're trying to build a house of cards, the last thing you
> should do is blow hard and wave your hands like a madman."
> -- Rupert Goodwins
> * TagZilla 0.066 * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org
--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)
|
