XPost: rec.arts.books.tolkien, alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox   
   From: hayesmstw@hotmail.com   
      
   On 6 Nov 2003 15:51:45 -0800, yzetta@yahoo.com (zett) wrote:   
      
   >hayesmstw@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) wrote in message news:<3fa7   
   cc3.138922620@news.saix.net>...   
   >   
   >[snip previous discussion of death as punishment in Christianity and   
   >death as Gift in Tolkien's universe, and where he might have gotten   
   >the idea to call death a gift]   
   >   
   >> As you say, it is an interesting question.   
   >>   
   >> It is possibly something Tolkien got from ancient Greek religion, though I'm   
   >> not sure that the idea of death as a "punishment"  is primary in   
   Christianity.   
   >> The real contrast might be death as an enemy, and death as a gift.   
   >>   
   >> The primary Christian understanding of death is that it is an enemy -- "the   
   >> last enemy to be destroyed is death" (I Cor 15:26), and speaks of Christ as   
   >> the one who "might destroy him who holds the power of death, that is, the   
   >> devil - and free those who were held in slavery all their lives by the fear   
   of   
   >> death" (Heb 2:14-15).   
   >>   
   >> The idea that death is a gift is not present, or if present, is not   
   >> emphasised. That sounds more like 19th-century English romantic poets, who   
   >> were "half in love with easeful death".   
   >   
   >Now I am curious about how many 19th cent. Eng. Romantic poets JRRT   
   >read. So some reason I can't think it was very many- yet there is a   
   >Romantic feel to his work...   
      
   As professor of English literature he was probably familiar with most of them.   
   Even though they were not in his period of specialisation, he must have known   
   something about them.   
      
   >> [snip interesting quote from Alexander Schmemann, _The world as sacrament_.]   
   >   
   >I guess I must have gotten the idea of death as an enemy and death as   
   >a punishment mixed up in my head over the years.  I will try to find   
   >this Schmemann book and read it at my next convenience.  Also it looks   
   >like I need to re-read Genesis.   
      
   It can be useful to try to read the text without preconceived ideas. There can   
   be some justification for preconceived ideas, and theological arguments based   
   on other texts, by which one interprets this one.   
      
   For example, on the basis of what is said in other texts, theologians identify   
   the snake with Satan. But the text of Genesis does not make such an explicit   
   identification. The snake is an animal, created by God.   
      
      
   >[large snip]   
   >   
   >>An ogre God is always more spectacular than the true God.   
   >>   
   >> The "death as punishment" idea is likewise an exaggeration, sucumbing to the   
   >> attractions of an ogre God.   
   >>   
   >[snippage]   
   >   
   >Well, unfortunately, the Ogre God is the one I was raised with. I   
   >think a very great part of the attraction that Tolkien's writings have   
   >for me is the subtle presence of a more humane God that infuses his   
   >words/world. I don't know if you have read the Athrabeth Finrod ah   
   >Andreth lately, but I am reminded of the times during Finrod's and   
   >Andreth's "theological" discusssion when one, then the other felt they   
   >perceived a truth that would make their hearts leap up. Something   
   >similar happens in me when I read Tolkien.   
      
   Tolkien (and C.S. Lewis) revived a number of premodern Christian ideas, which   
   they exounded in their fiction. Both loved premoder literature and theology.   
   Modernity made some profound changes to Westenr Christianity - the main   
   influences that created modernity were the Renaissance, the Reformation and   
   the Enlightenment. Tolkien's literary speciality went back behind this, and it   
   shows in his own writing. Lewis too, though not to the same extent. Their   
   friendship was based on a love of "northernness" - the old Norse sagas etc.   
   And these are all premodern literature.   
      
      
      
      
   >   
   >Thanks for an interesting conversation.   
      
   --   
   Steve Hayes   
   E-mail: hayesmstw@hotmail.com   
   Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm   
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