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   Not a single word in there says it's loaded with symbolism, and no   
   explanation was given as when Revelation speaks symbolically in other   
   places. There is nothing in the text to support your claim that torment   
   day and night, forever and ever with no rest, ACTUALLY means "instant"   
   "cessation of existence" with "no torment".   
      
      
   > Recall the Bible truth that death is non-existence.   
      
      
   Show me where the Bible says death is non-existence. That stupid lie has   
   been refuted 100 times. Do not fear him who kills the body but afterward   
   cannot kill the soul. If physical death resulted in non existence for   
   the soul, then men could kill your soul and there would be no soul to   
   survive the death of the body for God to kill. Death isn't   
   non-existence. It's separation. The first death is the separation of   
   your soul from your body. The second death is the separation of your   
   soul from God. Your stupid lies don't defeat what the Bible says, no   
   matter how many times you repeat them.   
      
      
   > Jesus verified   
   > that by saying Lazarus (John 11:11) was "sleeping".   
   > So there is no LITERAL Lake of Fire.   
      
      
   Excuse me?   
      
         • How are you drawing such a conclusion?   
      
         • "Sleeping" refers to the person's body, not their soul. From   
           the human perspective on earth, the body appears to be asleep.   
      
         • The lake of fire is for the devil, his angels, and those who's   
           names are not found in the book of life. Lazarus was a   
           believer, and would not have gone there upon physical death.   
      
   Thus it is not evident to me what connection you think you're finding here.   
      
      
   >> Symbolic language never contradicts its own   
   >> interpretation. If the symbol is fire, the interpretation is torment.   
   >   
   > Negatrons. Fire in many cases in the Bible means total complete   
   > DESTRUCTION. And when Jesus met the demons out in his ministry, they   
   > said 'have you come here to destroy us'? Not 'torture us'.  (Mr 1:24)   
      
      
   What do you mean by "total and complete destruction", and what Bible   
   verses do you claim demonstrate this? Something can be totally and   
   completely destroyed without ceasing to exist. Just the other day my   
   son-in-law was t-boned in a car and the car was "totaled". That doesn't   
   mean it just vanished into thin air and ceased to exist. It means it now   
   existed in a totally ruined condition. That's the idea behind   
   destruction. It's a state of ongoing ruin, not of removal from existence.   
      
      
   >>If   
   >> the smoke rises forever, the torment continues forever. A vanished   
   >> person produces no rising smoke and needs no rest.   
   >   
   > Notice:   
   >   
   > "Consequently, a rising column or cloud of smoke came to be used   
   > symbolically as a token of warning, a portent of woe to come or of   
   > destruction. (Re 9:2-4; compare Joe 2:30, 31; Ac 2:19, 20; Re   
   > 9:17, 18.) The psalmist says of the wicked: “In smoke they must come   
   > to their end.” (Ps 37:20) Smoke also symbolized the evidence of   
   > destruction. (Re 18:9, 18) Smoke that keeps ascending “to time   
   > indefinite” therefore is evidently an expression denoting complete and   
   > everlasting annihilation, as in Isaiah’s prophecy against Edom: “to   
   > time indefinite its smoke will keep ascending.” (Isa 34:5, 10) Edom as   
   > a nation was wiped out and remains desolated to this day, and the   
   > evidence of this fact stands in the Bible account and in the records   
   > of secular history. Similarly, the everlasting destruction of Babylon   
   > the Great is foretold at Revelation 18:8". (Insight, p. 982)   
      
      
   Observe,   
      
   Bible: “destruction”   
   “Jehovah’s Witnesses”: “annihilation”   
      
   The assumption is that "destruction" means "annihilation". It most   
   certainly does not. "JWs" simply substitute "annihilation" for   
   "destruction" (not the same word or meaning), and what happens to   
   corporate entities like "nations" for what happens to individual souls.   
      
   Scripture never defines "destruction" as ceasing to exist. The New   
   Testament gives the clearest and fullest revelation of final judgment,   
   and it applies destruction to individual conscious beings, not to   
   abstract concepts or nations. A nation can be destroyed politically   
   without answering what became of the souls of the people within it. The   
   New Testament answers that question and consistently shows conscious,   
   ongoing ruin rather than extinction. The Greek words translated   
   “destroy” or “perish” never refer to non-existence.   
      
   APOLLUMI – ruin, loss, undoing, never extinction   
      
   Lost sheep (Luke 15:4).   
   The shepherd “loses” a sheep with the word apollumi, yet the sheep   
   continues to exist until found. This proves the meaning is ruin or   
   danger, not annihilation.   
      
   Lost coin (Luke 15:8–9).   
   A coin described with apollumi still exists in the house. It is out of   
   place, not out of existence.   
      
   Prodigal son (Luke 15:24, 32).   
   “This my son was lost (apollumi).” The son never ceased to exist. Jesus   
   Himself uses apollumi for relational and moral ruin.   
      
   Destroyed wineskins (Luke 5:37).   
   The wineskins are “destroyed” using apollumi. They are torn and ruined,   
   not annihilated.   
      
   Food that perishes (John 6:27).   
   Food “perishes” with apollumi when it spoils. Spoiled food continues to   
   exist in a ruined condition.   
      
   John 3:16.   
   “Perish” is apollumi. The contrast is not existence versus non-existence   
   but eternal life versus eternal ruin.   
      
   APOLEIA – destruction, perdition, waste, never extinction   
      
   Judas, “son of destruction,” John 17:12.   
   Jesus calls a living man “son of apoleia.” This cannot mean “son of   
   non-existence.” It describes a doomed and ruined spiritual condition.   
      
   Waste of perfume, Mark 14:4.   
   The ointment is “wasted” (apoleia), not annihilated. It continues to   
   exist but is lost to its intended use.   
      
   Ruin from greed, 1 Timothy 6:9.   
   People plunged into “ruin and destruction” continue to live in misery.   
   They do not vanish.   
      
   Destructive heresies, 2 Peter 2:1.   
   Heresies are ideas. They cannot be annihilated. Apoleia means ruinous in   
   effect.   
      
   The beast goes to destruction, Revelation 17:8, 11.   
   He goes to apoleia, yet Revelation 19:20 shows him thrown alive into the   
   lake of fire, and Revelation 20:10 shows him still there, tormented day   
   and night forever. Destruction cannot mean annihilation.   
      
   OLETHROS – ruin, devastation, calamity, never extinction   
      
   1 Corinthians 5:5.   
   “Destruction of the flesh” uses olethros. The man lives through it. His   
   sinful condition is ruined.   
      
   1 Thessalonians 5:3.   
   “Sudden destruction” with olethros describes calamity that overtakes   
   living people. They do not vanish.   
      
   1 Timothy 6:9.   
   Men are plunged into “ruin and destruction” (olethros). Their lives   
   collapse; their existence does not.   
      
   2 Thessalonians 1:8–9.   
   “Eternal destruction” uses olethros and is defined by Paul as being   
   “away from the presence of the Lord.” Separation requires continued   
   existence. One cannot be “away from” God if one does not exist. Paul   
   defines destruction as an ongoing state.   
      
   THE NEW TESTAMENT’S DIRECT TEACHING ON CONSCIOUS, ONGOING JUDGMENT   
      
   Weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 8:12).   
   Non-existence cannot weep or gnash.   
      
   Undying worm and unquenchable fire (Mark 9:48).   
   The ESV uses “hell,” but the correct term is Gehenna. A worm that does   
   not die and a fire that is not quenched require ongoing subjects.   
      
   No rest day or night (Revelation 14:11).   
   The smoke rises because the torment continues. “No rest day or night” is   
   incompatible with non-existence.   
      
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)