XPost: alt.christnet.christnews, alt.bible
From: usenet@christrose.news
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Sat, 29 Nov 2025 21:43:50 -0500
Watchtower James wrote:
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> Churches: All righteous ones in OT went to Heaven when they died.
> Bible: Jesus said no one ever went to Heaven. (John 3:13)
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Note:
• Throughout Watchtower James' original article, he seeks to
portray a contrast between what he claims the "Churches"
believe, and what he claims the "Bible" says.
• There are two elements to each of his claims. One is what he
claims the Bible actually says, and the other is what he claims
the "Churches" believe.
• He claimed that the "Churches" believe that "All righteous
ones in OT went to Heaven when they died". This is FALSE.
• Whether or not he agrees that what the "Churches" believed is
consistent with what the Bible teaches, doesn't change the fact
he misrepresented what the "Churches" actually believe in an
effort to make it appear they do not agree with what the Bible
teaches.
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Sat, 29 Nov 2025 21:43:50 -0500
Watchtower James wrote:
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>> • The church has held that OT saints went to a place of blessing
>> until Christ completed His atoning work (Irenaeus, *Against
>> Heresies* 4.27.2; Tertullian,Against Marcion 4.34;
>> Hippolytus,Against Plato, On the Cause of the Universe 1;
>> Augustine,Enchiridion 109).
> There is no one inspired in those writings. They are NOT part of
> Scripture. And just what do you call that mysterious place?
Note
• It seems highly improbable to me that Watchtower James forgot
his original claim was that the "Churches" believe "All
righteous ones in OT went to Heaven when they died.
• Watchtower James is not disputing that what he originally
claimed the "Churches" believe is FALSE. They do NOT claim All
righteous ones in OT went to Heaven when they died"
• Instead of admitting he misrepresented what the "Churches"
believe to set up a FALSE comparison, he now PRETENDS that the
original issue was simply to dispute whether or not the
"Churches" writings are inspired (a claim I never made).
This convinces me that Watchtower James intentionally seeks to
misrepresent what the Churches believe. If he has no problem with that,
then why would he have a problem intentionally misrepresenting what the
Bible teaches?
Here's what the "Churches" historically believed about this:
1. Irenaeus of Lyons (c. AD 180)
Irenaeus repeatedly teaches that the righteous dead—including OT
saints—were in Hades, not heaven, awaiting Christ’s descent.
Quote (verbatim):
“The Lord descended into the regions beneath the earth, preaching
His advent there also; and [declaring] the remission of sins
received by those who believe in Him.” (Against Heresies 4.27.2)
Irenaeus locates the righteous “beneath the earth,” not in heaven. He
sees Christ’s descent as necessary to give them remission. That shows
they were not already in heavenly glory.
2. Justin Martyr (Dialogue with Trypho, c. AD 160)
Justin explicitly denies that anyone—including prophets—ever entered
heaven before Christ.
“No one has ascended into heaven before Him.” (Dialogue with
Trypho 113)
Justin says “no one” ascended prior to Christ. This includes the OT
righteous.
3. Tertullian (A Treatise on the Soul, c. AD 210)
Tertullian teaches that all souls—even righteous ones—go to the
underworld (“inferi”), not heaven, before the resurrection.
“All souls are detained in the lower regions until the judgment.”
(A Treatise on the Soul 55)
He even refutes the idea of immediate heavenly entrance:
“We suppose that the prison of hell is a subterranean region, and
that no soul is released from it until the resurrection.” (A
Treatise on the Soul 58)
Tertullian explicitly rejects the idea that OT saints (or anyone else)
went to heaven before the resurrection.
4. Hippolytus (Against Plato, c. AD 225)
Hippolytus describes the righteous dead as being in a compartment of
Hades, not heaven.
“The righteous shall obtain the incorruptible and unfailing
kingdom… but now they are detained in the bosom of the just.”
(Against Plato, On the Cause of the Universe 1)
He places the righteous in a “detained” state—not in heaven—awaiting
the
resurrection.
5. Augustine (Enchiridion, c. AD 420)
Augustine affirms that OT saints were in “the bosom of Abraham,” not
heaven, before Christ.
“The souls of the pious dead were in secret receptacles,
according to their merits, until Christ’s resurrection.”
(Enchiridion 109)
Augustine explicitly states that OT saints were not in heaven but in
“receptacles” (usually interpreted as the blessed part of Hades) until
Christ’s resurrection.
Summary
Across the early church:
No one taught OT saints went directly to heaven at death.
Virtually all Fathers describe the righteous dead in a waiting place,
usually called:
Hades
Paradise
Bosom of Abraham
“Secret receptacles”
“The regions beneath the earth”
These terms describe the blessed portion of the underworld, not heaven.
This directly contradicts Watchtower James’ claim.
Works Cited
Augustine. Enchiridion. In Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series,
Vol. 3. Edited by Philip Schaff, Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1887.
Hippolytus. Against Plato, On the Cause of the Universe. In Ante-Nicene
Fathers, Vol. 5. Edited by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson,
Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1885.
Irenaeus. Against Heresies. In Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 1. Edited by
Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, Christian Literature Publishing
Co., 1885.
Justin Martyr. Dialogue with Trypho. In Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 1.
Edited by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, Christian Literature
Publishing Co., 1885.
Tertullian. A Treatise on the Soul. In Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 3.
Edited by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, Christian Literature
Publishing Co., 1885.
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