[continued from previous message]   
      
   >         Kings 4; John 11). “Firstborn” here means the supreme and   
   >         authoritative One over resurrection — the heir of the new   
   >         creation.   
   >   
   >      • “the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven”   
   >        (Hebrews 12:23, ESV).   
   >   
   >	All believers are called “firstborn.” They obviously were not   
   >         all first in birth order. The term means full inheritance   
   >         rights as God’s redeemed people.   
   >   
   >These passages demonstrate the biblical pattern: “Firstborn” (Hebrew   
   >bekh?r / Greek pr?totokos) often means heir, ruler, preeminent one — not   
   >first in time or the first created being.   
   >   
   >Thus, when Paul calls Christ “the firstborn of all creation” (Colossians   
   >1:15, ESV), he immediately explains the meaning without leaving room for   
   >Watchtower James’s interpretation:   
   >   
   >      “For by him all things were created… all things were created   
   >       through him and for him” (Colossians 1:16, ESV).   
   >   
   >A person cannot be part of creation if He created everything in   
   >creation. Paul uses “firstborn” the same way the rest of Scripture does   
   >— to declare Christ the supreme heir over all creation.   
      
   Looks like you did a lot of research on this subject. But you forgot   
   one important thing: CONTEXT of Col 1:15:   
      
   Also, a  contextual look at Col 1:15 shows that Paul's statement is   
   showing birth order. (creation order) Jesus was the first person that   
   God created. Next came all the other things that God created. And   
   using His Son to assist in some way, God created the rest of the   
   things. Combing 15 and 16 shows this to be the case.   
      
   "15.  He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all   
   creation;   
    16.  for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth,   
   visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities   
   or authorities--all things were created through him and for him."   
   (RSV)   
      
   >   
   >   
   >> Churches: In Heaven, Jesus is God.   
   >> Bible:God is greater than Jesus. (John 14:28) (1 Cor 11:3)   
   >   
   >   
   >Bible: Jesus is God in essence (John 1:1; Colossians 2:9), but submits   
   >to the Father in role and function (Philippians 2:5-7; 1 Corinthians 15:28).   
   >   
   >Church: Jesus is God in essence (John 1:1; Colossians 2:9), but submits   
   >to the Father in role and function (Philippians 2:5-7; 1 Corinthians 15:28).   
      
   -- New King James   
   John 14:28  "You have heard Me say to you, `I am going away and coming   
   back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, `I am   
   going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.   
      
   And in Heaven with God:   
      
   -- King James   
   1 Corinthians 11:3  But I would have you know, that the head of every   
   man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of   
   Christ is God.   
      
   One of your extra-Biblical Creeds say that Jesus was EQUAL to God.   
   (see Athanasian Creed) Who is right you or the Creed?   
      
   >   
   >Watchtower:   
   >   
   >   
   >      • Rank and role do not negate equality of being   
      
   Rank and role are not the context of Col 1:15,16. It doesn't take a   
   genius to see that the context are things created. And it names them:   
      
   1) Jesus   
   2) thrones   
   3) dominions   
   4) principalities   
   5) powers   
   6) things visible   
   7) things invisible   
      
   . For example,   
   >        wives are supposed to submit to their husbands (Ephesians   
   >        5:22), yet they are equal as human beings (Genesis 1:27) and   
   >        children of God (Galatians 3:28), not lesser beings.   
   >   
   >      • Likewise, Philippians 2 shows that though Jesus existed in the   
   >        form of God (Philippians 2:6), He did not cling to His right to   
   >        be treated as God, but emptied Himself and took the form of a   
   >        servant (Philippians 2:7).   
   >   
   >Watchtower heretics try to confuse voluntary submission in rank and role   
   >with inferiority of essence and being. This is a stupid, self-evident lie.   
      
   Not according to 1 Cor 11:3. It says NOTHING about Jesus being equal   
   to God, but subjecting himself to God, in Heaven. You and the Churches   
   way, doesn't make any sense.   
      
   >   
   >   
   >> Churches: Many people saw Jesus.   
   >> Bible: No human has seen God and lived. (Ex 33:20) (1 John 4:12)   
   >   
   >   
   >The Bible shows that no mere human has seen God in His full unshielded   
   >glory and lived. This was evident right in the context of Exodus 33:   
   >   
   >      “The LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to   
   >       his friend” (Exodus 33:11, ESV).   
   >   
   >      “They saw the God of Israel. There was under his feet as it were   
   >       a pavement of sapphire stone” (Exodus 24:10, ESV).   
   >   
   >Yet God tells Moses,   
   >   
   >      "You cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live”   
   >       (Exodus 33:20, ESV).   
   >   
   >Later, God shows Moses His back side:   
   >   
   >      “Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the   
   >       rock, and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of   
   >       the rock, and I will cover you with my hand… Then I will take   
   >       away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not   
   >       be seen” (Exodus 33:21–23, ESV).   
   >   
   >God grants Moses a glimpse of His “back”, because Moses cannot survive   
   >the direct sight of His face. These passages describe genuine   
   >encounters, yet not full exposure to the essence of God’s glory.   
   >   
   >That's one of the reasons God had to come to us in a human body. This is   
   >pictured by the tabernacle in the Old Testament (Exodus 25:8-9). God's   
   >glory was shielded by animal skins (Exodus 26:14) to protect man (Exodus   
   >33:20). Christ came to us as God (John 1:1) but in a human body (John   
   >1:14) so we would not perish.   
      
   Yet the Bible says Jesus died for 3 days, but God NEVER EVER died:   
      
   -- New King James   
   Psalms 90:2  Before the mountains were brought forth, Or ever You had   
   formed the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting,   
   You are God.   
      
   Who ran the universe when 'God' was dead for 3 days? It should have   
   collapsed in on itself with no God around to control it.   
      
      
   >   
   >   
   >> Churches: All righteous ones in OT went to Heaven when they died.   
   >> Bible: Jesus said no one ever went to Heaven. (John 3:13)   
   >   
   >   
   >Misrepresentation.   
      
   Not even close. Those are Bible facts:   
      
   -- New King James   
   John 3:13  "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from   
   heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.   
      
   >   
   >      • The church has held that OT saints went to a place of blessing   
   >        until Christ completed His atoning work (Irenaeus, *Against   
   >        Heresies* 4.27.2; Tertullian, *Against Marcion* 4.34;   
   >        Hippolytus, *Against Plato, On the Cause of the Universe* 1;   
   >        Augustine, *Enchiridion* 109).   
      
   There is no one inspired in those writings. They are NOT part of   
   Scripture. And just what do you call that mysterious place?   
      
   >   
   >      • Jesus said right in that context that He came from heaven to   
   >        reveal the Father: “...except he who descended from heaven, the   
   >        Son of Man.” (John 3:13, ESV)   
      
   I suppose you also believe in church made up places like Purgatory and   
   Limbo.   
   >   
   If you stick ONLY with the Bible, you have a better chance of taking   
   in spiritual truths, than outside the Bible. What church is teaching   
   you about that bogus place?   
      
   >   
   >> Churches: Jesus is God.   
   >> Bible: Jesus is the "Son of God". (John 10:36)   
   >   
   >   
   >Bible: Jesus is God (John 1:1; John 20:28; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 1:8)   
   >Church: Jesus is God (John 1:1; John 20:28; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 1:8)   
      
   See above where I explained those Scriptures.   
      
   >Watchtower: Jesus is not God.   
      
   Hurray! You got one right.   
   >   
   >Also, you just, unwittingly demonstrated the church is correct for   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)