XPost: alt.christnet.christnews, alt.bible
From: usenet@christrose.news
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Mon, 01 Dec 2025 17:07:44 -0500
<3u3sikp7ulpkcmq1qjmf643cc4r03s0qdh@4ax.com>
Watchtower James wrote:
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> On Sun, 30 Nov 2025 06:57:35 -0600, Christ Rose
> wrote:
>
>> ========================================
>> Sat, 29 Nov 2025 21:43:50 -0500
>>
>> Watchtower James wrote:
>> ========================================
>>>> • The church has held that OT saints went to a place of blessing
>>>> until Christ completed His atoning work
>
> Just where is that place, and what is its name??
>
> (Irenaeus, *Against
>>>> Heresies* 4.27.2; Tertullian,Against Marcion 4.34;
>>>> Hippolytus,Against Plato, On the Cause of the Universe 1;
>>>> Augustine,Enchiridion 109).
>>
>>> There is no one inspired in those writings. They are NOT part of
>>> Scripture. And again just what do you call that mysterious place?
See how the stupid, would-be deceiver tries to distract, change the
subject, and promote diversionary confusion when he's cornered by his
own falsehoods?
He originally claimed the churches believe OT saints went to heaven when
they died. His claim is false, and he was shown that from multiple
sources which show the church did NOT believe that.
Instead of admit his first accusation was false, he completely ignores
his original claims, and invents a new false accusation. He now tries to
reframe the discussion, by pretending that showing what the churches
have said about what they believe, is to contend that their writings are
inspired Scripture.
Showing what the churches actually believe, based on their writings, is
not a claim that their writings are inspired. It is, however, evidence
that the churches have NOT historically believed the falsehood you seek
to attribute to them.
That you are now trying to change the subject to promote confusion, and
pretend you're championing a defense (against your own false claims)
about the inspiration of Scripture, shows you are too dishonest to carry
on a conversation with.
Again.
1. Irenaeus of Lyons (c. AD 180)
Irenaeus repeatedly teaches that the righteous dead—including OT
saints—were in Hades, not heaven, awaiting Christ’s descent.
Quote (verbatim):
“The Lord descended into the regions beneath the earth, preaching
His advent there also; and [declaring] the remission of sins
received by those who believe in Him.” (Against Heresies 4.27.2)
Irenaeus locates the righteous “beneath the earth,” not in heaven. He
sees Christ’s descent as necessary to give them remission. That shows
they were not already in heavenly glory.
2. Justin Martyr (Dialogue with Trypho, c. AD 160)
Justin explicitly denies that anyone—including prophets—ever entered
heaven before Christ.
“No one has ascended into heaven before Him.” (Dialogue with
Trypho 113)
Justin says “no one” ascended prior to Christ. This includes the OT
righteous.
3. Tertullian (A Treatise on the Soul, c. AD 210)
Tertullian teaches that all souls—even righteous ones—go to the
underworld (“inferi”), not heaven, before the resurrection.
“All souls are detained in the lower regions until the judgment.”
(A Treatise on the Soul 55)
He even refutes the idea of immediate heavenly entrance:
“We suppose that the prison of hell is a subterranean region, and
that no soul is released from it until the resurrection.” (A
Treatise on the Soul 58)
Tertullian explicitly rejects the idea that OT saints (or anyone else)
went to heaven before the resurrection.
4. Hippolytus (Against Plato, c. AD 225)
Hippolytus describes the righteous dead as being in a compartment of
Hades, not heaven.
“The righteous shall obtain the incorruptible and unfailing
kingdom… but now they are detained in the bosom of the just.”
(Against Plato, On the Cause of the Universe 1)
He places the righteous in a “detained” state—not in heaven—awaiting
the
resurrection.
5. Augustine (Enchiridion, c. AD 420)
Augustine affirms that OT saints were in “the bosom of Abraham,” not
heaven, before Christ.
“The souls of the pious dead were in secret receptacles,
according to their merits, until Christ’s resurrection.”
(Enchiridion 109)
Augustine explicitly states that OT saints were not in heaven but in
“receptacles” (usually interpreted as the blessed part of Hades) until
Christ’s resurrection.
Summary
Across the early church:
No one taught OT saints went directly to heaven at death.
Virtually all Fathers describe the righteous dead in a waiting place,
usually called:
Hades
Paradise
Bosom of Abraham
“Secret receptacles”
“The regions beneath the earth”
These terms describe the blessed portion of the underworld, not heaven.
This directly contradicts Watchtower James’ claim.
Works Cited
Augustine. Enchiridion. In Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series,
Vol. 3. Edited by Philip Schaff, Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1887.
Hippolytus. Against Plato, On the Cause of the Universe. In Ante-Nicene
Fathers, Vol. 5. Edited by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson,
Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1885.
Irenaeus. Against Heresies. In Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 1. Edited by
Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, Christian Literature Publishing
Co., 1885.
Justin Martyr. Dialogue with Trypho. In Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 1.
Edited by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, Christian Literature
Publishing Co., 1885.
Tertullian. A Treatise on the Soul. In Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 3.
Edited by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, Christian Literature
Publishing Co., 1885.
So yes, I am convinced Watchtower James intentionally misrepresents both
what the "Churches" believe and what the Bible actually says.
The citation proves that you misrepresent what the churches actually
believe about where OT saints went when they died.
>> ========================================
>> Sat, 29 Nov 2025 21:43:50 -0500
>>
>> Watchtower James wrote:
>> ========================================
>>
>> Your original claim was to the effect that the "church" believes OT
>> saints went directly to heaven. This is false.
>
>
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