XPost: alt.christnet.christnews, alt.bible
From: usenet@christrose.news
On 12/1/2025 5:05 PM, James wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Nov 2025 07:45:14 -0600, Christ Rose
> wrote:
>
>> ========================================
>> Sat, 29 Nov 2025 21:43:50 -0500
>>
>> Watchtower James wrote:
>> ========================================
>>> Churches: All righteous ones in OT went to Heaven when they died.
>>> Bible: Jesus said no one ever went to Heaven. (John 3:13)
>> ========================================
>>
>> Note:
>>
>> • Throughout Watchtower James' original article, he seeks to
>> portray a contrast between what he claims the "Churches"
>> believe, and what he claims the "Bible" says.
>>
>> • There are two elements to each of his claims. One is what he
>> claims the Bible actually says,
>
> And I usually show you the supporting Scripture.
>
>
>> and the other is what he claims
>> the "Churches" believe.
>
> Most protestant churches believe in the same false doctrines. Such as:
>
> Trinity
> Hellfire
> Immortal soul
> Right at death, go to Heaven or hellfire.
>
>>
>> • He claimed that the "Churches" believe that "All righteous
>> ones in OT went to Heaven when they died". This is FALSE.
>>
>> • Whether or not he agrees that what the "Churches" believed is
>> consistent with what the Bible teaches, doesn't change the fact
>> he misrepresented what the "Churches" actually believe in an
>> effort to make it appear they do not agree with what the Bible
>> teaches.
>
> Then, enlighten me. Name the church and its teaching.
>>
>> ========================================
>> Sat, 29 Nov 2025 21:43:50 -0500
>>
>> Watchtower James wrote:
>> ========================================
>>>> • The church has held that OT saints went to a place of blessing
>>>> until Christ completed His atoning work (Irenaeus, *Against
>>>> Heresies* 4.27.2; Tertullian,Against Marcion 4.34;
>>>> Hippolytus,Against Plato, On the Cause of the Universe 1;
>>>> Augustine,Enchiridion 109).
>
> Never heard of such a thing. What church? What about OT bad guys?
>
>>
>>> There is no one inspired in those writings. They are NOT part of
>>> Scripture. And just what do you call that mysterious place?
>>
>> Note
>>
>> • It seems highly improbable to me that Watchtower James forgot
>> his original claim was that the "Churches" believe "All
>> righteous ones in OT went to Heaven when they died.
>
> I never said that. Prove it to me.
So you didn't see your own words cited for you at the top of the page,
and you don't remember posting that? Here it is again:
========================================
>> Sat, 29 Nov 2025 21:43:50 -0500
>>
>> Watchtower James wrote:
>> ========================================
>>> Churches: All righteous ones in OT went to Heaven when they died.
>>> Bible: Jesus said no one ever went to Heaven. (John 3:13)
James: "Churches: All righteous ones in OT went to Heaven when they
died."
Do you not see your words? How is it you now deny saying that?
>>
>> • Watchtower James is not disputing that what he originally
>> claimed the "Churches" believe is FALSE. They do NOT claim All
>> righteous ones in OT went to Heaven when they died"
>>
>> • Instead of admitting he misrepresented what the "Churches"
>> believe to set up a FALSE comparison, he now PRETENDS that the
>> original issue was simply to dispute whether or not the
>> "Churches" writings are inspired (a claim I never made).
>
> If they are not inspired, then they are from men, and do not have to
> be obeyed.
>
>>
>> This convinces me that Watchtower James intentionally seeks to
>> misrepresent what the Churches believe.
>
> I don't intentionally anything. I just give out the facts.
>
>> If he has no problem with that,
>> then why would he have a problem intentionally misrepresenting what the
>> Bible teaches?
>
> I have no problem, and speak Bible truths. (John 4:23,24)
>
>>
>> Here's what the "Churches" historically believed about this:
>>
>> 1. Irenaeus of Lyons (c. AD 180)
>>
>> Irenaeus repeatedly teaches that the righteous dead—including OT
>> saints—were in Hades, not heaven, awaiting Christ’s descent.
>
> Bing, bing. You are half right. All the OT personage are in their
> graves awaiting the resurrection. (Acts 24:15)
>
>>
>> Quote (verbatim):
>>
>> “The Lord descended into the regions beneath the earth, preaching
>> His advent there also; and [declaring] the remission of sins
>> received by those who believe in Him.” (Against Heresies 4.27.2)
>
> Actually, that should be called 'For Heresies'. Jesus was DEAD (not
> conscience, no wisdom, no knowledge, etc) for 3 days and talked to no
> one. (Ec 9:5,10; Ps 146:3,4; Mt 11:11)
>
> If Jesus was alive then, they couldn't say he was dead.
>
>>
>> Irenaeus locates the righteous “beneath the earth,” not in heaven. He
>> sees Christ’s descent as necessary to give them remission. That shows
>> they were not already in heavenly glory.
>
> No wonder you are so mislead. STAY WITH THE BIBLE. Do not trust man's
> doctrines. You don't know what their motives were, etc.
>
>>
>> 2. Justin Martyr (Dialogue with Trypho, c. AD 160)
>>
>> Justin explicitly denies that anyone—including prophets—ever entered
>> heaven before Christ.
>
> At least, one of them got it right.
>
>>
>> “No one has ascended into heaven before Him.” (Dialogue with
>> Trypho 113)
>>
>> Justin says “no one” ascended prior to Christ. This includes the OT
>> righteous.
>>
>> 3. Tertullian (A Treatise on the Soul, c. AD 210)
>>
>> Tertullian teaches that all souls—even righteous ones—go to the
>> underworld (“inferi”), not heaven, before the resurrection.
>>
>> “All souls are detained in the lower regions until the judgment.”
>> (A Treatise on the Soul 55)
>
> And where is his proof of such claims? And there is no such thing as
> an immortal soul. (Eze 18:4; Gen 2:7)
>
> A "soul" (nephesh) craves to eat meat. (Deut 12:20; KJV)
> A "soul" has blood. (Jer 2:34; KJV)
> A "soul" can die. (Eze 18:4; KJV)
>
> These are God's teachings, not those of men. (2 Tim 3:16)
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