XPost: alt.christnet.christnews, alt.bible
From: usenet@christrose.news
On 1/7/2026 6:57 PM, James wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Jan 2026 17:02:28 -0600, Christ Rose
> wrote:
>
>> ========================================
>> Sun, 04 Jan 2026 14:49:08 -0500
>> <28bllk1ru7r13ljareqsaqp6iofdlva3q2@4ax.com>
>> Waffling Watchtower Hypocrite and Heretic James
>> wrote:
>> ========================================
>>> On Mon, 29 Dec 2025 13:38:07 -0600, Christ Rose
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> ========================================
>>>> Mon, 29 Dec 2025 07:48:29 -0500
>>>> <04p4lk5sdbd812ae5lfddt6gepke5j1ldh@4ax.com>
>>>> Watchtower Heretic James wrote:
>>>> ========================================
>>>>>> It clearly shows that it remains a "lie", even though the people
>>>>>> "believe" it to be true. What a person believes about the "lie" doesn't
>>>>>> change make it to "the truth" or an "innocent error" simply because they
>>>>>> hold it to be true. A "lie" remains a lie, whether people believe it to
>>>>>> be true or not.
>>>>
>>>> Merriam-Webster
>>>>
>>>> "b : an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be
>>>> believed true by the speaker or writer." (merriam-webster.com)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I'll go by Merriam-Webster.
>>>>
>>>> Then why do you disagree with a definition which both the Bible and
>>>> Merriam have agreed on?
>
> I don't, and they didn't. MOST references only give my definition of a
> lie, the speaker must willfully deceive.
>>>
>>> Good answer. I would have sworn I read where the speaker believed it,
>>> did not make it a lie. Notice:
>>
>>
>> “And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they
>> should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the
>> truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:11–12,
>> KJV 1900)
>>
>> Are you claiming the Bible is in error here to identify the content of
>> their "belief" (NOUN FORM) as a "lie", simply because they "believe" the
>> "lie" (NOUN FORM) to be true?
>>
>> Observe:
>>
>> • The Bible calls the content of what these people will believe
>> (the NOUN form which identifies the substance of their
>> belief) a "lie", even though they "believe" it.
>
> A lie is not based on the listeners beliefs, those references say the
> one lying is one who tries to knowingly deceive his listeners.
>
>>
>> • Any definition of "lie" (NOUN FORM) which excludes this as a
>> legitimate understanding, CONTRADICTS and seeks to UNDERMINE
>> what the Bible teaches.
>
> The truth never undermines the Bible. And that is what God desires of
> us. (John 4:23,24)
>
>>
>> • This is not to be CONFUSED with what the people's action (VERB
>> FORM) would be if they expressed their "belief" in the "lie".
>> So, for example, if they "BELIEVE" the "LIE", they are not
>> LYING in the sense they are knowingly intending to deceive
>> people, but that's not the issue. The issue isn't their ACTIONS
>> in talking about their belief, but the SUBSTANCE of their
>> belief itself.
>
> Of course, that goes for all Bible truths.
>
>>
>> This seems to indicate the following:
>>
>> • You are confusing the noun form of the word which identifies
>> the content of the belief itself (a falsehood or "lie"), with
>> the verb form which shows the action and intent of the person
>> speaking about the falsehood/lie.
>>
>> As noted many times, the person who believes the "lie" may
>> fully "believe" the content of their claim to be true. So they
>> are not "lying" in the sense that they are knowingly trying to
>> deceive people when they talk about it. However, the content
>> of their beliefs (noun) do not change to become "truth",
>> simply because they believe it to be true.
>
>
> This has nothing to do with listeners beliefs. This is the speakers
> responsiblity all the way. If he willingly tries to deceive, he's a
> liar. If he says some faulty, but believes it, he doesn't lie.
>
> For example, the speaker says the earth is flat, and gives Scriptures
> to support him, he doesn't lie even though most people know he doesn't
> say the truth. It's all put on the speakers head, on what he says.
>
>> If their belief is
>> false, it remains a "lie", whether they are deceived about it
>> and believe it or not.
>
> Me and a bunch of dictionaries, disagree with you. And millions of
> JW's. All my sayings are as true as I can say them. I do not lie, and
> any Bible qutoes, I fully believe to be true. ESP when a NT text
> copies the Tetragrammaton in the OT, THat Tetragrammaton should show
> up in the NT. It's a QUOTE. It should be as exact as possible,
> including the Tetragrammaton .
>
>>
>> • When you claim to the effect that you base your beliefs only on
>> what the Bible itself teaches (such as the idea that "staurus"
>> must be understood EXCLUSIVELY as a "pole without a cross-beam
>> attached to it" and that "no amount of reasoning" which comes
>> from "outside the Bible" matters because the Bible only says
>> "pole", and not "cross-beam"), how are you not an hypocritical
>> LIAR who KNOWS that he accepts extra-biblical definitions of
>> words when it suits his preferred understanding?
>
> Isn't that the point? We were not born with Bible facts. We have to
> learn them. Thus understanding the Bible is the preferred
> understanding.
>
>>
>>
>>> 1) A lie is an assertion that is believed to be false, typically used
>>> with the intention of deceiving or misleading someone.[1(Wikipedia)
>>>
>>> 2) lied; lying 'li-i?
>>> intransitive verb
>>>
>>> 1
>>> : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
>>> (Merriam-Webster)
>>>
>>> 1
>>> a
>>> : an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker or writer to
be untrue with intent to deceive
>>> (Merriam-Webster)
>>>
>>> Then they add it the way you believe it.
>>>
>>> Thus apparently, according to Webster, the speaker can believe it or
>>> not. And it is still a lie.
>
> You see, that definition is disrespectful to the speaker. The speaker
> can be a faithful follower of Jesus. And then gets shot down with
> people like you, when he is as innocent as a dove. And then he gets
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