XPost: alt.christnet.christnews, alt.bible   
   From: usenet@christrose.news   
      
   ========================================   
   Wed, 28 Jan 2026 13:07:59 -0500   
   <765knkhaeodljh4hf63qjgfu5onflri95r@4ax.com>   
   Watchtower Heretic James  wrote:   
   ========================================   
   >> “So these stones shall be to the people of Israel a memorial   
   >>        forever [olam]” (Joshua 4:7, ESV).   
      
   > In this case, it would be up to the time that God and Jesus abandoned   
   > the people of Israel back then: Mt 23:37,38,   
   >   
   > 37.  "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and   
   > stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your   
   > children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but   
   > you were not willing!   
   >   38.  "See! Your house is left to you desolate;   
      
   You are proving the point rather than refuting it.   
      
   Joshua 4:7 does not say the stones last until God “abandons Israel.”   
   That idea is imported from Matthew 23 and does not belong in Joshua at all.   
      
   “So these stones shall be to the people of Israel a memorial forever   
   [olam]” (Joshua 4:7, ESV).   
      
   The text itself defines the duration. The memorial lasts **as long as it   
   functions as a memorial**. Stones do not become eternal objects. No one   
   claims they do. “Forever” describes the covenantal purpose, not endless   
   duration.   
      
   And Matthew 23 does not rescue your argument.   
      
   “See! Your house is left to you desolate” (Matthew 23:38, ESV).   
      
   Jesus is pronouncing judgment on the temple generation, not declaring   
   that God has abandoned Israel as a people forever. Paul explicitly   
   denies that reading:   
      
   “Has God rejected his people? By no means!” (Romans 11:1, ESV).   
      
   So even your attempted limiter fails biblically. You are mixing   
   covenants, contexts, and centuries to force a meaning the text never   
   supplies.   
      
   Now Psalm 24:7.   
      
   “Lift up your heads, O gates… O ancient doors [olam]” (Psalm 24:7, ESV).   
      
   Yes—exactly. The doors are old, not eternal. And that is precisely how   
   olam functions. It can mean ancient, enduring, or lasting according to   
   appointed purpose. It does **not** mean eternal by default.   
      
   That is the entire argument you keep trying to evade.   
      
   No one is denying that “forever” can mean eternal when the subject   
   demands it—God, His reign, His word, His glory. But when the subject is   
   created objects, institutions, offices, or memorials, Scripture itself   
   repeatedly limits the term by context.   
      
   Your responses here concede the rule every time:   
      
   – Stones: lasting for their appointed memorial role   
   – Doors: ancient, not eternal   
   – Servitude: lifelong, not endless   
   – Samuel’s service: “as long as he lives,” not eternity   
      
   And yet you want to suspend that rule only when the word “earth”   
   appears, even though Scripture explicitly says the earth will perish,   
   flee away, be dissolved, and be replaced.   
      
   That inconsistency is the issue.   
      
   You cannot argue:   
   “Context determines olam”   
   and then refuse to let **eschatological context** determine it when   
   Isaiah, Psalms, Hebrews, Peter, and Revelation all speak plainly about   
   the end of the present heavens and earth.   
      
   Your own examples confirm the principle:   
   olam means **as long as God appoints it to last**.   
      
   And Scripture tells us—clearly, repeatedly, and explicitly—how long the   
   present heavens and earth are appointed to last.   
      
   Not forever in their present form.   
      
      
   >> The stones existed as long as the memorial stood, not eternally.   
   >>   
   >>       “Lift up your heads, O gates… O ancient doors [olam]” (Psalm   
   >>        24:7, ESV).   
   >>   
   >> The doors are old, not eternal.   
      
   > See above   
      
   See above.   
      
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